Serious OT causing 1-3 hr NW in 9 mo?

[sweetsarahbeth]

I am brand new to this board and I think I've been making a muck of things. This is my 3rd child, so you'd think I'd have it down by now, but every child is different, right?

My DS is 9 mos today and stopped sleeping well right around the 6 mos mark. We were CSing, but he started waking to nurse all night long and neither one of us was getting any sleep, so I started the transition into his crib all night and attempted to night wean. He has always, since birth, been a cat napper and it took us a long time to get into any kind of routine. Right now I have him on just one nap per day and an early bedtime, but after reading around here, that seems to have been a mistake on my part. However, when he was on two naps I couldn't get him to sleep longer than an hour at a time, and now he'll sleep up to three on a good day. He was also waking every 1.5 hours, but now has gone down to one wake, but it's increased to 1-3 hours long at about 3:30 am. At this point, I'm not sure which one is worse.

I have been at my wits end and the past five days I have been trying a CC, CIO method where I go in every five, ten, fifteen minutes and pick him up, calm him down, pat and soothe for however long it takes and then try to leave the room again. Sometimes he will lie there awake with eyes wide open, but calm for up to fifteen minutes and doesn't even notice I leave, but other times his head pops right up and he starts crying.

Needless to say, I am extremely sleep deprived. Any help would be very welcome.

How old is your child? 9 mos
What’s his/her daily routine? 7 am: wake up, nurse, breakfast of solids, play, 10/11am: nap until 12/2, nurse, play, 5 pm: dinner, bath, bedtime between 5:30/6 pm. DF @ 10pm, wakes up around 3:30 for anywhere between 1-3 hours.
What’s nap routine? nursing, rocking and patting
How long are naps? Anywhere from 1.5- 3 hours
What's bedtime routine? Time? Dinner, bath, story, nurse & rock around 5:30/6
Do you bottle or breastfed?? EBF
How much? or how long? On demand
If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed) If I'm full, just one.
How many wakes per night? Down to 1 really long one
What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up? He wakes up fussing and then it turns into standing and crying. Sometimes after soothing it turns into calm and wakeful, but usually generally unhappy to be awake. He's up anywhere from 1-3 hours.
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry? crying
What have you tried to settle?? I have tried nursing, rocking, patting, and he also he has white noise playing in his room.
What do you do for A time and how long is it? A time is playing with his sisters, reading stories, cruising, etc.
Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones? He has 4 teeth now, so probably has some more coming in, and has been cruising for months now. Possibly gearing up to walk, but it doesn't seem like it.
Do they have a prop? If so what is it? no
Do they have a lovie? no

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[Skadiver13]

have been at my wits end and the past five days I have been trying a CC, CIO method where I go in every five, ten, fifteen minutes and pick him up, calm him down, pat and soothe for however long it takes and then try to leave the room again.

Hi hun welcome. I know how tired and frustrated you must be but we don't condone the use of CIO or CC on the forum, so if you would like to utilize this forum and the advice of the wonderful ladies I hope you'll consider stopping CIO and CC. For answer on why this is you can check out:

Cry it out (CIO): 10 reasons why it is not for us


A few questions, does he self settle at BT, nap time or is he being rocked to sleep?
Also what do you do after the 2hrs to get him back to sleep? Are you feeding him?
As for the one nap I think he's most certainly OT as that's super early for one nap.  So I think the first step is combating the OT by going back to two naps. You can see typical routines here:
Sample EASY Routines from 0 - 13mths+

You'll most likely do ether a short Awake time and capped nap in the AM and longer pm full nap or vice versa.

HTH

[sweetsarahbeth]

Thank you for the reply. I did read around and realized the general consensus of the forum on that point, i just mentioned it for full disclosure. The CC is really not something I want to be doing. Aside from this past week I havent used it with any of my children. Like I said, prior to this we were co-sleeping. It was really just a desperate measure after hours of patting and shushing and rocking and nursing. It has never sat well with me and obviously isn't working. I am definitely looking for something else.

Before I answer your questions, yesterday went like this: he woke up at 7, I tried to put him down at 10 because I knew he was exhausted and he wasn't having any of it. I tried again at 11 and it took about half an hour. He slept for half an hour, but then was woken up when his white noise shut off for some reason. I tried to get him back down for over an hour, but no dice. My husband finally got home to watch my other two and I took DS in to my bed and laid down together and finally nursed him to sleep and I got a short nap too. He woke up around 3 and I put him to bed for the night at 6. DF at 10, and I also set an alarm for 2 am and did it again. He woke up again at 4:30, but went down peacefully with just a little patting. So, no crying all day, except a bit when trying to put him down in his crib to continue his nap, but with me there comforting.

So, last night seems to have been a success and I don't know if it was the extra 2 am feeding, the two shorter naps instead of one long one or what.

To answer your questions: he has never self-settled, and yes, at the end of the two hours I usually wound up nursing him to sleep.

I also have a school pick up at 2 pm two days a week that throws things off. We don't wind up getting home until 3:30  which seems late for a nap if he's up at 6:30 and then naps at 10ish. Any thoughts?
Another question: I think one of my initial problems with his sleep routine began with me not trying to extend his short little catnaps early on which started an OT cycle, but I have two older children who need to be supervised and who would also come in and interrupt. What do you do with your other kids when you're trying to get the baby down for long periods of time?

[Skadiver13]

Hi Hun, no worries I'm glad to hear you wont continue with CIO or CC. I think we all do things in times of stress and exhaustion we wouldn't normally do. I'm glad you are here looking for alternatives.  It sounds like you could have a routine issue and a prop issue.

I think you'll need to combat the self-settling first. Teaching a lo to self-sooth to sleep at nap and bt is going to make your life a whole lot easier. That being said yes there is going to some tears and possible yelling/tantrum on his part but it wont last forever. But the key is consistency. You can't feed him to sleep even if he's exhausted, you can't co-sleep with him, you can't rock him to sleep etc. You'll really need to dig in your heals and hopefully your DH can take a day or two and you can swap out.   Have a look at the Gentle Withdrawl thread to give you ideas on how to go about it. And check out the links below.

.......  "The key to Gradual Withdrawal is to take tiny steps and make the changes very small at first so the child barely notices them.  Create a plan, broken into small steps of how you will reduce the parental dependence and work towards independence.  For example, patting on the back becomes lighter and lighter until the hand barely brushes the child's back, but is poised just above it.

To implement, follow your bedtime routine being certain that your child has sufficiently wound down from the day.  When wind down is completed, lay your child down, tuck them in and use a phrase they can associate with it's sleep time such as "time to go night-night you can find your blankie/pacifier/suck your thumb/etc. to help you fall asleep." Settle your child in their crib/bed and comfort as you normally would, then implement the first step in your plan.  Depending upon your child's temperament, you may be able to tackle more in less nights, or need to do less over the course of more nights.

The Gradual Withdrawal Method is intended for children that are reliant upon a parent's presence to calm them and help them settle for sleep. Examples are: sitting in the room, holding a child's hand, laying down with a child, patting to sleep, among others.  The idea is to simply reduce the reliance on parental presence gradually and in very small increments so the child continues to settle well and gains confidence in their ability to fall asleep independently.  The parent is there to assist the child in sleeping, but slowly reduces the dependence.  Examples might be: moving a chair closer and closer to the door until out of the room over the course of a few weeks, moving out a child's bed to an air mattress on the floor, then slowly move farther and farther towards the door over time, reducing the length of time patting though still staying with the child - then slowly working closer and closer towards the door.

This is also the best method for a child:

    who's undergone controlled crying or crying it out as it helps to regain any trust that may have been broken
    who gets very upset, sometimes to the point of vomiting
    who does not settle after hours/days/weeks of walk in/walk out

Sleep Training  - the early days

How can I sleep-train a second baby when I have a toddler running around?

FAQ's - Frequently Asked Questions & Related Information

I also set an alarm for 2 am and did it again. He woke up again at 4:30, but went down peacefully with just a little patting.

^This is not considered a DF. My suggestion is not to do that. It's ok that you did of course but at his age you really want to start moving away from waking to feed. You also could start moving away from the DF but we'll tackle that later. If he doesn't wake on his own to eat I wouldn't wake him up yourself. You want his sleep cycle to occur naturally.

think one of my initial problems with his sleep routine began with me not trying to extend his short little catnaps early on which started an OT cycle,

I totally understand and some kids just don't resettle after CN's. I know some mom's who will try and resettle for 15-20min and otherwise just get them up. I know others who don't even bother because they have other lo's in the house.  If your lo's are old enough to be unsupervised then you could put on a tv show for them while you try and resettle, a safe art project etc. If they aren't than it's a persona choice for you to choose to resettle or not. You could try and resettle one but not both naps etc. 

I think what might help me with your routine is if you could put it in EAS format.. Then i can see where it might need tweaking. If you have no idea than give me what you would want it to be or what you think may work with what he's already doing. 

[sweetsarahbeth]

Thank you for the reply. Last night went okay. I will read through the links you posted and respond after.

[Skadiver13]

Hope all is going well.

[sweetsarahbeth]

Thanks, it's not! I am having an extremely difficult time being consistent with how I put him to sleep.

I did put him back on two naps, keeping the afternoon nap very very short. Sometimes I nurse him to sleep, sometimes I pat him, sometimes I rock, sometimes I stand and jiggle. It's terrible and I am so, so, so, tired.

This was our schedule yesterday:

E: 6:30 nurse then breakfast in high chair
A: Playtime with sisters
S: 10-11:30/noon (nursed/rocked to sleep - if he takes less than a 2 hour nap I always try to put him back down, but he hardly ever goes down again)
E: Lunch noon
A: Playtime with sisters, run errands, etc.
S: 3:30 quick nap of just 20-30 min so he'll still be sleepy for bedtime
E: 5:30 Dinner in high chair
A: 6 pm Bathtime, story
S: 6:30 Say goodnight to daddy & sisters using sign for sleep, start rocking & nursing - usually asleep by 7
A: 8:40 pm - patted and jiggled to sleep
A: 10 Pm - nursed to sleep
A: 2 am - nursed to sleep
A: 4 am - nursed to sleep
A: every fifteen or twenty minutes after that until about 5:30
A: 6:30 am this morning

I feel like my attempts to night-wean him wind up with me up at night for hours and hours and I just honestly can't do it and also function during the day. I have tried rocking/nursing.soothing and then putting him down still awake repeatedly until he falls asleep on his own in his crib, but I just feel like he winds up over-tired and wound up from that.

So, that's where I am. It is 11:26 now and he just woke up from his first nap crying and upset. I feel like he should sleep longer, but I doubt he will go back to sleep.

[Skadiver13]

Hi hun, i can tell you are frustrate and very tired. I totally feel your pain.  The only thing I can say is consistency in how you handle the NW's and resettling naps is going to be key.  If you nurse to sleep and co-sleep or rock back to sleep it's just not going to change because he's never going to learn to self settle and I hate to say it but it's just not going to get better.

Is there anyone that can help you and give you a break for a day or two to catch up on your sleep so you can try again?

[sweetsarahbeth]

I will talk to my husband about it, but he is wiped out too.

Another question I have is this: if trying to get him to sleep without nursing keeps him awake for long stretches at a time, doesn't that contribute to overtiredness and compound he problem? Sometimes I give in just because I figure it will just make things worse and mess up our routine tomorrow if he is overtired from being up crying for over an hour at a time at night.

[sweetsarahbeth]

I am looking for general info on overtiredness on the boards, but don't have permission to search for some reason. Can somebody point me in the right direction?

Last night he was up basically from 2:30-5:30. He woke for the day at 7:30, napped from 11-12:30 and then wouldn't go down for an aftednoon nap. I am trying to use the pu/pd method. I know he is exhausted, so I started the bt routine early tonight, trying to keep things super mellow until he is ready to go to sleep. He has had a good dinner, bath, nursed and is now just chilling in his crib.

I just don't know what to do when trying to get him to put himself to sleep interferes with his sleep and causes ot.

[Skadiver13]

I am looking for general info on overtiredness on the boards, but don't have permission to search for some reason. Can somebody point me in the right direction?

It doesn't work. Your best bet is going to google typing in OT babywhispererforums and you'll get some results. Have you read the books?

Hun I'll be honest if you don't teach him to SS he'll not get over the OT because he'll keep expecting you as a prop or whatever prop you use to get him back to sleep whenever he wakes. Yes in the interim he will be OT and cranky and mad at you when you are ST him but that will pass and once he learns to ss at naps/bt he'll learn to ss at night wakings too (unless he's sick) then you'll all get some much needed rest. You need to keep the long term goal in mind.

[sweetsarahbeth]

The forum search doesn't work? Interesting.

Just an update: I have been using the PU/PD method since monday with great success. Last night he woke up twice but the first time only tcok one pd to fall back asleep and second time took two or three for a total of five mins. In the meantime, however, naps have deteriorated (a second nap is often nonexistant, though not for lack of trying, or both are very short. Today his first was 30 min and his second was an hour). His naps have been short since birth though, so i think that might just be normal for him when he is not playing catch up from lost sleep at night.

I am also still doing a 10 pm dream feed. I have been trying my hardest to stick to a routine and do not want to switch or change anything at this point when things seem to be going in the right direction finally.

Just checked the book out from the library the other day and am reading it now.

[sweetsarahbeth]

So we were doing great until last night. He woke up close to 3 am and screamed for two solid hours. I changed him and gavehim some tylenol in case it was teething, but by 5 am, which is when he normally wakes up hungry, I figured he actually was hungry and fed him. He fell right to sleep after that.

Did I screw everything up?

[Skadiver13]

No hun, you didn't do anything. It just happens sometimes. My lo woke up one night out of the blue at 1am and would not go back to sleep hell or high water until I rockd him back to sleep, and then slept on the floor becuase he kept waking up. the next night everything went back to normal. I think sometimes it just happens. I think in his case it was teeth as well. Just go back to normal day today and see what happens tonight. Also just being up for 2hrs just probably made him hungry who knows sometimes. Don't worry.