9.5 month old been sleep training still NWs and questions about standing, props

[minimoog]

Hi - we posted on PUPD and got soem great help a few weeks back when we started sleep training.  The first week saw amazing progress, from co sleeping to sleeping in his cot all night, and he also as a result goes down for bed and for naps without any fuss, settles himself to sleep generally.

However after the first week we had a few brutal nights with long NWs again.  He ssemed to be teething (again!) and screaming in some pain so we had been giving Motrin on and off (just 1 dose a night) - we don't like to use it too much or prolonged.  Then we'd get a couple of good nights then back to long NWs again.

His general routine seems to be:

7am wake (breakfast is solids and breastfed)
1030 - 1130 nap (usually 45 mins to an hour)
12 ish lunch (solids, breastmilk before or after)
3-4pm nap 2
5pm dinner
6pm bath
630pm storytime, nursed, fed also a 4oz bottle of breast milk to top off
7pm bed

On a good night:
11pm wakes - fed a 9oz bottle of breastmilk
4pm wake - nursed
630 or 7am wakes

On a bad night (which seems to be the norm again now so here's last night's routine)
7pm bed
9pm wake - settled with PD or trying now to use more WIWO - but can take 15-20 mins - last night took over an hour
11pm wake - fed 9oz bottle - 10 mins PD to sleep
1:45am - wake - nursed - bit fussy after, took about 20 mins of sitting near him (we try not to do PD anymore as it makes him more mad!)
4am - wake - nursed as above
5:15am - wake, tried to settle without nursing, he took about 40 mins to settle with just voice
7:50 am - woke for day

We are wondering if we got sucked in by the teething - though he is definitely teething - he cut first 2 on bottom a couple of months back and nothing since but he is so drooly and red cheeks and gnawing on anything (his fingers at night) but at the sides so wondering if molars are working themselves through.  At first we gave Motrin etc and nursed the NWs a bit more again as he seemed to be acutely teething.  But other than 1 or 2 good nights since it has been going on lie this for a couple more weeks now.  I read that teething can't be that bad for so long, usually just the 48-72 hours before the tooth cuts through.  And don't want to become reliant on pain meds every night over a long period.

So we are thinking we should get firm again on settling from NWs without nursing, and also with the teething he started to need a hand to hold or my sleeve even toughing just with 1 finger. If I remove it anytime he screams and the whole thing starts again.  So wondering if this is a prop we need to lose.

Questions:
 - should we lose all props (incl any touch)?
 - is it normal 3.5 weeks into ST to still have big NWs and frequent/so many?
 - when he stands should we lay him down?  I have been as worried he may fall though he can sit himself down quite well now, but some NWs have laid him down over 20 times and still he gets straight back up and also the crying escalates as he reaches for me because he thinks I'm picking him up but I just lay him down!
 - should we cut back on nursing / feeding at NWs? THat was the plan before the "teething" kicked in.

Trying to touch him less (though it's hard as if I do pick him up he usually immediately falls asleep and so when I try to PD within a couple of seconds of him calming he goes crazy and the whole cycle starts again - so thinking not to do PU anymore)

Quite often now the NWs end with him being so cried out and tired he can't physically pull himself up anymore so he just collapses and sleeps.

Wondering if we're also dealing with separation anxiety.

Any help gratefully received

[Skadiver13]

Hi hun just wanted to pop on and say ill be back later today to reply. I'm having computer issues and its hard to reply on my phone but I will get back to you. Promise.

[Skadiver13]

I read that teething can't be that bad for so long, usually just the 48-72 hours before the tooth cuts through. 

Oh how I wish this was true. To be honest every child is different. My lo had no issues with the top 4 and bottom 4 but his molars and canines are killing us and it's been going on for months. He doesn't need meds every day but usually a few days in a row he does then I'll give a day off and if he doesn't wake up in pain then we're good for a bit then it starts again. I know how you feel about giving too much so that's how we do it.

As for the nursing I do understand you wanting to nurse for comfort but at his age it's going to become a prop very fast, which it sounds like it might.  I would just resettle at all NW's except the one he uses normally at a feed so maybe the 4am one?

Is he waking at the DF or are you waking him? I know some lo's still like the DF but wake up expecting it after a while. Although given he's taking a full 9oz I would guess he still needs it. How much does he take before bed 4hrs earlier?

As for your questions. I wouldn't lose touch there is nothing wrong with settling a lo back to sleep when they are not feeling well i.e. discomfort etc. It's when they wake and can never settle back to sleep with out you. My lo finds my hand on his bum comforting if he wakes in pain and that's how I get him back to sleep, but if he wakes on accident he resettles himself. Does that make sense?

As for the long NW's it depends. Maybe try meds at 11 when you give the bottle for a few days and see if that solves any NW's. Maybe not nurse any nw's except ones where you know you aren't doing it to comfort.

When he stands can he lay himself back down again? If so then no you don't want to lay him back down as then it becomes a way for him to keep you in the room. I would not pick him up unless he's sick i.e. teething etc. If he just falls right asleep when you pick him up then it might be a prop. If you feel it's necessary pick him up once to comfort him then lay him back down. After that if he starts to cry and stands up then just repeat your sleepy phrase and pat the mattress and tell him to lay down. Could certainly be a little SA but should get a bit better by stopping the comfort nursing and they laying him down. Did you look at some SA threads?

[minimoog]

Thanks so much for the reply, really appreciate you taking the time to do that.

Yes frustrating that several mom friends have had no issues at all with teething, baby not even noticed that like 6 teeth came through :-)

I think that is the way we will go with the pain meds, just give it a few nights if things get bad then try to break for a bit. 

We aren't waking him for the feed, but it seems to be fairly consistent around 1030/11pm now. 

Last couple of nights have been quite a bit better, and funnily enough we decided to try cutout nursing / feeding him at every wake so he had bed by 7, then woke briefly around 9 tonight and I did one brief PUPD and he was fine again, last night he didn't wake til the feed at 11.  He gets nursed at bedtime (prob 6-8 oz, he drains one breast completely), and also tooped off with a bottle of breast milk by OH straight after which is 4oz which he almost always drinks dry.  Then he gets the 9oz at 1030/11.  Last 2 nights he then woke at 3am but did not feed him, 1st night was an hour to settle with just voice (some laying down but yes he can sit/lay himself down from stading now so I am tending to leave him as long as possible unless he is only holding with one hand and awaying about to fall alseep and fall haha), but last night was just 15 mins to settle without feed.  So that is progress.  After the previousl night where he was awake 3-4 without feed, he then slept until 8:15am!  And last night after settling 3-315am he slept through until 430am, we nursed him and he settled with no fuss then he slept until 745am!  So we may be making progress on losing the nursing prop.

So he definitely does not need feeds and also seems to be better at settling himself if he wakes in the evening.  earlier he sat up (we saw on the video monitor) and cried then laid himself down and went back to sleep.

I've also stopped allowing him to hold my arm/hand/sleeve to fall asleep (which is why it prob took an hour to settle him night before last at 3am!) - I've done hand on back and back rub briefly which has helped at times but definitely want to get away from the holding prop.

With standing, I am starting to let him stand and then get himself down now I know he can.  I get what you say about it being a way of keeping me in the room.  Although I can't leave the room anyhow as he is crying all that time standing or lying (until he finally maybe starts mantra crying when he is lying down on his front finally for a bit).

I have taken to sitting on a blanket nearish to his crib and doing my sleepy phrases (sometimes patting mattress like you say) when he is really crying, but if it's just a lighter NW then I try to shhh from the doorway which has worked a couple of times.

Thanks again for advice will definitely look at some threads on SA.

[Skadiver13]

Yes frustrating that several mom friends have had no issues at all with teething, baby not even noticed that like 6 teeth came through :-)

Oh they'll get theirs. we all do in one way or another.

We aren't waking him for the feed, but it seems to be fairly consistent around 1030/11pm now.

I'm not sure if you should try and wean the DF now if he's sleeping through the night otherwise but it might be something to look into. I'lll have some other mods look and see. One thing you could do is possibly try and up his milk intake during the day to try and make it so he doesn't need such a big feed. If he takes 6-7oz at 7 for him to take 9oz 3 hours later is a lot of milk.

GREAT JOB otherwise you are doing AMAZING at resettling and changing how you resettle him. Awesome.

[Erin M]

What's his milk/solid intake like for the rest of the day?