7 month old - night waking and can't get back down

[Tamlyn]

I want to first thank everyone who is a part of this forum; it has been a great hep in the past.

We began EASY and shh-pat with our LO when he was 3 months old. We incorporated PU/PD when he aws 4 months old. He goes down for naps easily, assuming that we have a proper wind down time and get him really tired before setting him in the crib. He goes down easily for bedtime as well; however he almost always falls asleep while nursing. I'm not sure how to avoid this as I have tried moving this feeding earlier, but he either won't eat very much or more typically has still fallen asleep. Perhaps this is part of the current problem?

He wakes anywhere from 4-6 hours (closer to 4 hours more recently) after going to bed. I typically feed him, and he he goes right back down. We could not do the DF as he always wakes up, although I may try pumping and doing the DF with a bottle. In the past he would just wake once more, around 2-3am for a feed and then go right back down. Recently, after travelling and also around the time his A time increased to 3 hours, he has begun waking more frequently after the first night waking (every 2 hours or so). We try PU/PD and he continues crying for long stretches (60-70 mins). At this point, I typically feed him and he goes back to sleep. Nothing else seems to calm him (the definition of a prop to be sure ).

Is this crying time unusual? How long should we keep trying? It is not a mantra cry but an all out cry with tears.

I have also wondered if the night wakings could be partially a consequence of a longer A time. I have not been sure how to transition smoothly to a longer A time without him being later for feeds and thus taking in fewer calories. For instance, if he was formerly on a 4 hour EASY with feeds at 7, 11, 3, and 7. With the longer A time, his naps extend beyond the next E time on this routine. Flexibility is a hallmark of the EASY routine, so I allowed him to sleep and eat when he wakes form the nap. However, I have been concerned that with delaying the E time, that he is not getting enough calories in the day and there for waking at night? The new E time is delayed by about 30 minutes for each E time. Additionally, as solids have become more of a part of his diet, he hardly breastfeeds for very long at all at the 3:30pm feeding now (about 5 min instead of 20min).

The night wakings are pitiful; he cries so hard. Any help is greatly appreciated! A typical day for us:

6:30-7am Wake up
7am BF
8am 2-3 oz solids
9:30-10am Go down for nap
11:30 or 12pm (depending on wake up time)- BF
12:30 or 1pm- Solids
2 or 2:30pm (depending on when woke form last nap)- Go down for 2nd nap
3:30pm- light BF
4:30pm Solids (2-3oz)
6:15pm- Bath
6:45-7:15pm Final BF before bed
Between 11:30pm and 1:30am(typically closer to 11:30pm) NF
And then the new NW begin...

THANKS for any ideas/help!

[Layla]

Hi there,

When you feed him at this new night waking, does he genuinely eat? My lo is 7 months and yes, the BFs are further apart but she takes more in and i believe she's getting enough. Milk has more calories than solids so maybe cutting down on solids will be a good idea so that his milk intake increases. We do BF at 6am, 10-10.30 (upon nap wake up), 3ish (upon nap wake up) and i offer another one side before bath and the other side right before bed (6-6.30pm). Our solids are mainly breakfast and lunch and I've just recently started giving her some at dinner but it's really only a tablespoon.

Could you maybe start reducing this new feed (gradually weaning it) in the hope that he starts to take more during the day?

[Tamlyn]

Hi! Thanks for the suggestion. I certainly can try that. He has never really shown much interest in solids until now, and he doesn't seem excited now...but does open his mouth in anticipation. Would I need to gradually decrease the solids intake? How much should I decrease it? He is taking about 2-3 oz per meal now (B, L and D). Perhaps a decrease to 2 oz?

[Skadiver13]

Hi tamlyn when does he usually wake at night and how are you getting him back to sleep? Also maybe try cutting the dinner out for now so he will take more bm at bedtime? My lo wasn't on 3 solid meals till closer to 12 months? I'm not an expert but it might be worth a shot.

[Layla]

My suggestion would be same as S's - as I mentioned earlier, we don't really do dinner. She will sit at the table with us and will have a nibble here and there and that should hopefully bring back the milk intake, which is more important at this age than solids.

How did last night go?

[Tamlyn]

Hi, sorry for the delay; we were travelling for a few days. Even while travelling though...it remained pretty consistent. He still wakes every 3-4 hours during the night. I'm trying decreasing food during the day right now. I'll cut out dinner tomorrow. He still seems to be drinking a lot of breast milk at the last feeding though? He's been eating about 2- 2.5 oz of food with dinner (about 4:30pm).

When he wakes, I am either using PU/PD (usually 1-3 times) to get him back to sleep or feeding him. I do not feed him if he wakes closer together than 4 hours, since that is his daily schedule, although since we added solids at 3 meals, he has stopped drinking much breast milk (only 4-5 min as compared with 10-20 minutes at other feeds) at the 3:30pm feed.

Again, I am also unsure of how the EASY progresses once his A time is >3 hours... that may be a question for the EASY board, but I thought it related to the current issue so am also mentioning it here.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond!

[Skadiver13]

Hi hun just checking in to see how things are going.

[Tamlyn]

We are still having issues; things get better for a while and then start again. He is taking in more breast milk now at the afternoon feed, since I reduced intake of solids.

He quickly reached a point where the NW with 2 hours of long, hard crying stopped; he began self-settling in the crib if we entered his room and put a hand on him (not picking him up). The only time the NW occur now with 2 hours of long, really hard crying is when we do not go into his room fairly quickly (i.e. when we wait and try to let him self-soothe until it's a real cry). It's like he reaches a threshold beyond which he cannot settle himself down. I don't mind going in and putting a hand on him when he first starts whining- I know this is against BW teaching as it is not yet a "real cry." However he does quickly return to sleep this way. Once he feels a hand, he rolls over and actively tries to go to sleep which takes him about 5 minutes. The fact that he is actively trying to go back to sleep seems good, even though my hand is on him.

Because I am basically responding to something that is not a real cry, should I not enter his room until the real cry begins, even if I know that this will surely turn into 2+ hours of all-out crying? It is so hard to be in there with him screaming so hard, so upset for that long. He really is inconsolable. My partner is concerned that entering early (accidental parenting I know) will keep him from ever just going back to sleep on his own. However it seems that waiting until he reaches an all out cry (that will surely last 2+ hours) to enter reinforces the louder/longer crying? Any advice/insight would be appreciated.

Typical routine:
Wake up - 6:30-7am
Breast feed or bottle if week day 7am
Eat- 2 oz solids 8am
Nap 10am in crib (or 3 hours post wake up)
Wake up 40 min after going down, transfer to carrier for another 45 minutes of sleep
Breast or bottle if week day- 11:30am or 12pm
Eat- 2 oz solids 12:30 or 1pm
Sleep 3-3:40pm in crib
Breastfeed 3:40pm
Eat- 2 oz solids 4:45pm
Bath 6:15pm
Top off breatfeed 6:30pm
Asleep by 7pm

Requested info:
How old is your child?- 9 months
What’s his/her daily routine?
What’s nap routine? 2 naps ; we "wind down" by listening to music while holding him and then set him in the crib once eyelids are heavy
How long are naps? usually 1.5 hours in the Am and 40 minutes in the afternoon; he wakes up after 40 minutes for BOTH; however, with the AM nap we transfer him to the carrier and he will sleep longer. He's always only taken 40 minute naps. The only way to extend it has been to put him in the carrier.   
What's bedtime routine? Time? Bath at 6:10-6:30pm, top off breastfeeding, then into crib. He always falls asleep while feeding at this "E" time only. Initially I would wake him back up in fear that he would become dependent on eating to sleep, but that just seemed silly, especially since he went back down from NW and for naps without eating
Do you bottle or breastfed?? Breast; bottles with pumped milk in the AM though when I am at work
How much? or how long? He typically eats for about 8-10 minutes per side
If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed) Both
How many wakes per night? 2-4
What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up? See opening paragraph
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry? usually a fuss then immediately to an all-out cry
What have you tried to settle?? Putting a hand on him but leaving him in the crib
What do you do for A time and how long is it? A time is about 3.25 hours; it usually consist of floor time, time in his jumper, strolls
Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones? Some teething
Do they have a prop? If so what is it? My hand resting on him?
Do they have a lovie? Yes, although he doesn't seem very interested in it

[Tamlyn]

Forgot to mention that there is still 1 NF.

Last night:
7pm- Down for the night
10:45- NF
2:30pm- woke; went right in and put hand on him, back down in 5 min
3:20pm- woke; fussed for 10 min; we waited until he cried to go in; cried hard till 5:40am
6:15am- woke, waited before going in, did not go back down

[Tamlyn]

One more note that may shed some light...he typically goes down easily for naps, although we have ~20 minute wind down time where we hold him and sing or listen to music until his eyes get heavy. We don't let him actually fall asleep on us, but he gets close. When we set him in the crib, he rolls over and goes to sleep. Perhaps this "wind down" is too much?

He has never had a clear "mantra cry." He seems to go from gentle fussing to crying. Once we go in his room upon crying, he may start the mantra, but if we walk out he cries again. Do we just keep walking in and out?

I know I am probably over thinking at this point...