Author Topic: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps  (Read 6431 times)

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Offline creations

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2013, 11:10:58 am »
Sorry to hear you are still struggling with naps.  Some questions:
Is he self settling at naps now?
Has he ever transitioned between sleep cycles on his own at nap time other than in the car?
Is he falling to sleep on the breast?
Have you recently introduced solids?
Can you post today's EASY exactly as it happens and what you do to extend or what methods you use to help him transition, plus his mood at each stage.


Offline gb18

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2013, 10:20:30 am »
Hi

He is settling at some naps otherwise I shh/pat for a short time. He self settled yesterday first nap but not the others

Yesterdays Easy -

EW at 6
E 6.50
Solids 8
S 9
WU 9.40 - woke immediately - pushing up on arms on tummy and moving around - not crying. Did not attempt to settle as assumed he was happy and refreshed.
E10.15 - as whinging so assumed hunger
S 12.00 as so grumpy
wu 12.40 (with one wake up and cry out after 5 mins but settled self) - crying out - attempted shh/pat to settle but no success. When lifted out of cot - smiling although remained unsettled for him throughout the afternoon.
Solids 1.30
E 2.30 (bf)
S 3.35
wu 4.15 - hyperactive and intermittently fussy and grumpy till bed
E 6.45 - fell asleep feeding
Wu - 10.30 fed - he has not woken at this time for ages
wu - 2 fed
Wu 5.30 - unable to settle therefore up for the day today with EW

The NW were more frequent - he has done as well as 1 wu recently in the night and only had one feed. Definitely OT all yesterday. Had to take husband to work today therefore LO fell asleep at 7.30 till 8.45 this morning - I know that sleeping in the car should not be a habit but he was so tired this morning that he was falling asleep feeding so I just wanted to do anything to get his to catch up on some sleep.

He never falls asleep feeding unless he is shattered -he did last night and this morning although woke this morning when I moved him.
I have introduced solids but he has not taken to this that well so intake is extremely minimal.

He has transitioned once indep in cot and about 3 times with shh/pat. He transitions when in the car moving and has also on many occasions stayed asleep and transitioned when sat in car seat after it has been taken out of car. He can also transition if laying next to me in bed although I should stress I have only ever done this about 3 times ever.

He rarely shows tiredness signs and seems to get over active easily. He is mostly very happy so yesterdays grumpiness shows big OT!!

Really disheartened, my instincts say 3 hours is too long as causing OT build up but not sure how else to extend naps.
Thinking W2S but really need more advice. What are your thoughts?




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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2013, 10:37:10 am »
I agree that the long A times on such very short naps and so little day sleep will be causing some big OT.
Do you have the energy/commitment to sleep train for at least one nap per day as it sounds to me like he has never learned to transition on his own and this really is the basis of the problem. I was previously under the impression he had been transitioning before the problems started and that you were working to extend the naps.
40 mins is never a restorative nap so he may look ready to go but really he needs longer, he just hasn't learned to sleep longer.
Yes W2S is a good option - go in before the 40 min WU and begin shush/pat or adapted and see him right through to the next sleep cycle, this can be a full 20 mins into deep sleep.  You might find that an adapted shush.pat may be helpful for your LO, he likes to sleep with the motion of the car so I would imitate this by leaving him in the cot and placing a firm hand on him then giving a very slight rocking motion, almost a vibration, my LO liked this, it is a very small but firm hand movement.  This can later be reduced and weaned if necessary. You would do this every day for the first nap until he successfully slept longer, then continue for 3 days to build a habit of a longer nap. On day 4 do not W2S but watch to see what happens. If the nap extends on his own then great, if not then begin again the next day doing the same thing for 3 more days, day 4 watch to see what happens.
It does take commitment from you though, only begin the process if you feel ready to do so.  The thing with lifting him from his cot every day when he wakes looking refreshed is you are teaching him that a 40 min nap is fine and it is time to get up.  There's also little point in attempting a re-settle unless you are fully committed to it. It's just wearing on you and confusing for him if you try for a bit then give up.  Equally if you are going to drop one of the naps to get to a 2 nap day you really need to teach him he is to stay in bed and sleep.  Otherwise, yes lots of OT and NWs will be normal.

If you don't feel you can commit to sleep training at this point then I would suggest bringing all the A times right down and going for as many CNs as you can fit into the day - 4 or 5 even and early bed time.

I know it's hard. x


Offline gb18

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2014, 12:39:51 pm »
Hi. Just a frew more questions if that is ok.

I have always tried to resettle for at least 20 mins but admittedly have not been resettling unless crying . This is because I read the interviews with Tracy on here and she said to leave if not upset. I am going to stay in this next week (started yesterday) to really try to get on top of things. NO SUCCESS SO FAR THOUGH!! What do you think I may have done wrong -
Have reduced A slightly as 3 hours just seemed to cause horrendous OT and had 3 shocking nights where I ended up feeding to sleep or with him in my bed.

So yesterday - managed 3 45 min naps. No crying on waking - no luck with extending after trying for 30 mins each time. Just ended up causing crying after around 15 mins of trying as LO wanted to shuffle around cot.

Today - slight increase in A for first nap- 2hr 45 - quick shh/pat to settle as cried when left initially - 20 min sleep VERY UNSETTLED Throughout - cried on waking therefore 30 mins of trying to settle - eyes open, refusing to sleep, tried picking up after 30 mins and resettling but this made crying even worse so in the end I just got him up.

Watched closely for tiredness and after 2hr 15mins - settled to sleep - woke after 40 mins - quiet, rolling in cot - left a 5 mins but did not look like he was attempting to go back to sleep therefore shh/pat - totally unsuccessful!! I know A short but he had literally on had a very unsettle 20 mins before so surely 2hr 15 ok for this!!??

So my questions are - if 40 mins is never refreshing what do I do if he is not crying and looks like he has had enough sleep. Previously been told to leave and not go in but if this is never refreshing do you think I should persevere? I just have no confidence that he will sleep when he is not unsettled on waking.

Looked back on your previous suggestions re capping first nap and thought today seemed to fit in well with that plan (as there had been a spontaneous 20 min nap and 2hr 15min A seemed right) but then this has now gone haywire due to short nap.

Just wondering re W2S - nervous as think that he will just wake at 30 mins and not resettle - as never really resettles when I try. Have you heard of people going in at 20 mins instead of 30? Just thought I may have more resettling success then.

Thanks in anticipation
 

Offline Jodes112

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2014, 12:54:16 pm »
Sorry to interupt but what i noticed from your last post is 3 45 minute naps, this is classic Under tired! I still think you need to push the A some more. Because of the 45 min naps though at the end of the day baby is OT. If you find the magic A time then naps should lengthen therefore eliminating the OT. I know its hard but with 3 45 min naps its a big sign that LO needs more A time between naps xx
Jody
 xx

Offline gb18

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2014, 14:57:48 pm »
Thanks Jodes - working on gradually increasing again as had reached 3 hours but then LO got ill etc etc plus we had a shocking time with huge OT with 3 hours and some horrendous nights.
Also still had short naps with 3 hours. Really not sure if he can transition as has never really done it, but he can self settle ( all be it intermittently).

Just never really sure whether to leave him or try and resettle when he is not crying - even after 3 hours he was not crying sometimes although we had a rough ride of lots of crying until he got to this stage - just could never resettle. Just wondering at what point 3 naps a day s going to really become a huge issue and want to sort obviously before this happens.

Offline Emami

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2014, 02:07:14 am »
Hi, I've just had a quick read over the thread but not completely familiar with everything so sorry if I've missed anything!  But this is what I'm thinking:

- He is definitely in 3-2 territory and I agree with others that he is UT and ending up OT from short naps.  Any nap transition is tough, and there were days when my DD was only doing 2x 40min naps until she got used to the longer A times, and then I got 2 lovely long naps (until the 2-1!).  It was rough, but sticking with 3 naps and shorter A times was worse.  You might think 3 short naps would be better than 2, but by sticking with 3 naps it's hard to fit them into the day and there's never really a chance for them to get longer.  If you're not ready to really push A times then I would do as creations said and just fit as many catnaps as you can into the day.

- EBT is a great way to catch up and help with OT.  It doesn't work for everyone - some babies just do a rigid 10/11/whatever number of hours at night no matter what - but if your DS tacks on then I say the earlier the better!  I have done as early as 5:30 here and it's never backfired.  Have you ever tried it?

- Does he respond to any APOP?  Obviously the end goal is to get him sleeping independently and longer, but if OT gets really bad I personally don't think it's the worst thing in the world to do whatever you need to do to get a decent nap once in a while.  Tbh I wish I'd done that a bit more when DD was younger - she is a great sleeper home or away as long as she is in a bed, but terrible anywhere else which makes traveling really tough!  We've had some very long days with no naps on planes, in cars, in buggies etc.

- How are you trying to resettle?  Sorry, I think you've already covered this but there's a lot to read back!  It seems as though he's done long naps and transitioned by himself in the car?  If movement is something that helps him you could do that instead of ssh/pat.  I used to jiggle the mattress, and the principle is the same as ssh/pat, ie. the cot is the place that he falls asleep and resettles, and you can gradually reduce the amount that you intervene until he is doing it himself.

Hope some of that helps.  Hugs, short naps are the worst!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 02:09:14 am by Emami »
Emma






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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2014, 08:38:31 am »
Thanks to pps for the additional support and input  :-*

In addition to pps advice I want to say, from experience and from what Tracy says in her books (although I am not quoting), your LO looks to YOU for the routine and to show him the way.  Yes much of EASY is about following cues and reading your baby's needs however I'm sure you'll remember Tracy said babies do not set the rules or the routine.  So if we look at feeding as an example, if baby is snacking every hour we observe this and interpret baby's need - to have fuller more satisfying feeds and to stop snacking (many reasons, 2 are that breast fed babies need hind milk, and all babies need to eat enough to see them through A time and S time).  So there is example of interpreting baby's needs to encourage healthier eating routines.
With sleep it is the same - Tracy didn't tell us to blindly follow baby's desire to sleep here or there or for this amount of time, but to observe and interpret their need and then shown them the way to healthy restorative sleep which ultimately will make them happier little beings.  IMO your baby (as is typical for the 3-2 transition) is giving many signals that he needs to move to 2 naps.  He doesn't know how to do this alone so there are phases of him short napping, phases of crashing out in the car for 2 hrs, NWs, EWs... and so long as you allow this to go on he will continue to be somewhat lost in his routine, days will never be predictable for either of you and his cycle of UT/OT will continue.
I know it is terribly hard to decide which way to go, and what to do (been there, and thank goodness for this forum, I've said it before, we all end up here when we are lost and need help working out our baby's needs) but I really think you need to decide on a plan, write it down so you know what your plan is and stick to it.
For instance if you are going to drop nap 1 with preference for naps 2 and 3 to remain (which was mentioned as an unusual but possible plan) you need to take that in hand and make it happen. Not try to resettle after 40 mins but cap at 30, then 20, then 10 then stop offering the nap - and this happens rapidly to get him on a regular, predictable routine.
If on the other hand you now want to work at keeping naps 1 and 2 and drop nap 3 (more regular plan) you need to make that happen. Push the A right up to a suitable time, and teach him to sleep whether or not he cries.  I KNOW crying is not nice, but like I said before Tracy was not at all against baby crying during sleep training so long as you are with him, and she was not at all against very long A times (mega long - look back at reply 33 for example and page reference for a much younger baby forced to longer A times than your LO during sleep training), you would need to commit to teaching him that it is nap time whether or not he sleeps or cries you continue to teach him it is nap time.
Which ever you choose you need to know where you are headed, so that baby knows where he is headed and you need to fully commit to the plan.

What comes to mind for me is my DS's 2-1 nap drop, different nap drop but more work and crying than I ever expected. He'd been doing a 2hr nap reliably every day for so long I never thought that could be disrupted - wrong - as his CN was dropping and as I was offering EBT in response his regular 2hr nap disappeared!  Varying in length to begin with and leaving him massively OT on 20 or 40 min naps, sometimes 1hr... the solution was for me to tell him it was nap time and stick to it no matter what. I did W2S every 20 mins for the entire nap in attempt to keep him asleep.  Often it worked, when it didn't and he woke fully I began resettling in the cot until he screamed, when he screamed I picked him up and held him and continued to tell him to sleep, he screamed and screamed and screamed with me whispering in his ear that I loved him that he was not alone and that it was time to sleep. Eventually he passed out in my arms and I put him down in his cot, continuing with a hand on him until his sobs and judders faded. And 19 mins later I was back in his room to W2S him through the next 20 min mark.  And I just kept on going until he had a minimum of 2hrs sleep.  Believe me it was not nice, it was damn hard. But it was worth it for him and for me.  And eventually he was able to see himself through that nap again and we were through the nap drop and out the other side (and that nap remained from roughly 12 months to over 2.5 years).

Short naps are common between 4 - 6 months but they can happen at any age when LO needs a new routine.  It can be smooth sailing with a small tweak in the times or it can be utter hell.  Either way, I honestly think the way through is to get it done and the sooner you start the sooner you come out the other side.

hugs


Offline gb18

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2014, 08:52:08 am »
Thank you all so much. Really good to hear all your experiences.

Just to clarify - say LO woke at 1 pm after 2 40 min naps do I have to keep him awake till EBT?

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2014, 09:18:42 am »
Without knowing your plan of action it's a tricky one to answer... and I think you'd get different answers from every member, hence needing to know your plan of action so we can support in your progress forward.

If you were planning on a 3hr A and failed to extend then your day might look like:
wu 6am
A 3hr
S 9 - 9.40
A 3hr
S 12.40 - 1.20
A 3hr 10
EBT 4.30pm

However, based on the example I gave of Tracy's sleep training she would have pushed baby to stay awake until the next routine nap time so the day would look more like this
wu 6.00 keep baby in bed until 7am to reinforce that it is sleep time
A 3hrs counted from 7 - 10 (the reality then is that A becomes 4hrs)
S 10 - 10.40 (if LO wakes after 40 mins you keep in room and continue to tell him to sleep until nap time is over 1.5hrs)
A 3hrs counted from 11.30 - 2.30 (reality then is A becomes 3hr 50)
S 2.30 (if LO wakes after 40 mins you keep in room and sleep train until nap time is over 1.5hrs. If LO sleeps cap at 2hrs and no later than 4.30 if he didn't fall asleep on time at 2.30)
A 3hr counted from 4 - 7 (reality is this A may be 3hr 50 or as short as 2hr 30 if that last nap was slept)
BT 7pm

You will find many people here would not push as hard as the example above but some do, and from what I've read 3 days and your done, routine is set. And really that's what Tracy did.  I always go a bit more gradual with routine changes because it is such hard work.  There is a possibility of some compromise but like I said before you'd need a plan and stick to it.  for example in that above example I'd prob do EBT at 5.30pm (only if nap 2 was as short as 40min. To reduce that last A time and try to avoid quite so many OT NWs).


Offline gb18

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2014, 15:13:30 pm »
Hi. Sorry not been in contact. Had no computer.
I am really pleased to say I have had some napping success!! Yay!!

Since my last post I have had a mixture of occasional 2 one and half hour naps or one short nap and one long ( anywhere from 1 and half hr to 2 and half hour) also few days of 2 40 min naps.

Trying to only have 2 naps even when short although if we r out in the car obviously this is hard to stick to.

Really happy as I now know my lo can transition unaided.

Just a quick question, as lo is approaching 6.5 months, if naps decrease ( they have the last few days) should I try and up a again by 10 mins?

Thanks so much for all your help. You have been such a huge help and I feel so much happier re naps and feel more confident and relaxed.could not have increased a etc without your guidance x

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2014, 17:56:08 pm »
Yay! Glad to hear of some success :)

I don't know what A time you are working with now but generally if naps go short then that is one of the things you can do. It's important to look for other reasons for disturbance first though - teething, illness, eternal noise, change in temperature (too hot/cold), developmental leaps, starting solids...lots of things can disturb sleep and A times are not always the answer.

I would likely try to regulate the naps a bit more too so that you aim for 2 1.5hr naps every day OR one longer one shorter rather than them changing every day (so perhaps wake at 1.5 hrs rather than let sleep for 2.5 - unless there is illness). LOs love the routine and habit and regular length naps really help with getting good sleep. they learn to know when to sleep and for how long so the more regular the routine the stronger it is iyswim.


Offline gb18

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2014, 22:20:03 pm »
That makes perfect sense! Today was a good day, which may have been because the night was shocking after just 2 40 min naps yest!!

Today morning A was 3hr ( very hard to reach today) and pm A was 3hr 20. That is the longest I have tried but he just did not seem tired and worked well as had 1 and half hr am nap and 2 hr pm.

Will start trying to regulate them a bit

Offline kbecks

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2014, 22:26:12 pm »
Hi, sorry to jump in on this thread but I'm really interested in what you did which resulted in longer naps. In going through what you have and want to see what you did to see if I can replicate with some success (hopefully!!). Very tired so I want to try something with some how it will work!!! Thanks in advance

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Re: Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2014, 23:42:26 pm »
kbecks, hi, maybe you'd like to start a new thread for your particular difficulty so that you get more eyes (and more specific advice)?  I would post your EASY times and any bits of info about how you try to resettle etc.
x