Short lived success, feel defeated :(((

[CattyPads]

So here I am again...after following your advice of extending the A time, we started getting a 1.5 hr nap after lunch plus 3 catnaps of 35 mins. But now we are back to the four 35mins naps   

It was all going so well...! Basically, currently the aim each day is a 2hr A time (increased from 1,5hrs before) and the feeds are every 4 hours, sometimes 3,5hrs.
The A time is easy to achieve in the street as he keeps busy looking around, but at home he struggles and get fussy, so I don't think I could extend it any longer yet.
Any ideas what went wrong?!

Also, could this be affecting his night sleep? He has started waking up once, sometimes twice per night. He doesn't cry, just chats to himself for a bit and if we put the dummy in he falls asleep on his own quite quickly. This is very odd as he has slept through the night since 7 weeks old. Oh and he used to sleep 13ish hours now maybe 10-11 hours.

Sorry for the long post and million questions yet again, I am at my wits end!

[Emami]

Hi hun, how old is he now?  Can you post his day in EAS format just so it's a little clearer?

[CattyPads]

Thanks for your reply

He is 5 months old (24 weeks). Here is his EAS (roughly, sometimes half hour up/down).

Wake up 8:20
E: 8:50
A: 2hrs
S: 10:20 - 35 mins
A: 2-2,5 hrs as we are usually out
S: 13:00 - 35mins
E: 13:30-13:45
A: 1Hr 45 mins (we are home by then and he struggles to keep awake/gets fussy)
S: 15:15 - 35 mins
E: 17:15
A: 2,5 hrs (again, a bit longer as we are out)
S: 18:45ish - 35 mins
E: 20:45
S:21:00
DF: 23:00

I have tried leaving him in his cot and he usually stays there chatting to himself but he never goes back to sleep, then gets grumpy after 15-20mins if I dont go to get him. If i try sssh pat it seems to wake him up even more.
The longer lunchtime nap I achieved by extending A time only lasted 6 days.

Again, thank you very much!

[Emami]

It looks like a tricky Ut/OT loop to me where he is UT going down but OT overall because his naps aren't restorative.  Sorry, I know you've been trying to extend A times so this might not be what you want to hear but I really think that first one is short at 2hrs and needs a push.  Is he really cranky at that time or do you think he could just seem tired because he's used to sleeping at that time? You mentioned he does better with longer A times when you are out and about... is it possible to take him out first thing so he stays awake without a struggle?

Also, are you happy with the late WU and BT?  If it works for you then I don't want to mess with it, but one way to get him caught up a bit might be to scratch that 4th CN and make it BT instead.  Does he tack on?  It would still likely give you an earlier start to the day but give you a longer night overall and a good point to see if you get better naps.

[CattyPads]

Thanks emami!

He actually seems alright after 2 hours in the morning (whereas the other A times are a lot trickier and he is just VERY tired after 2 hours), I just put him down because I thought two hours was enough and when I did he just went to sleep really quickly, so assumed he was tired...so how long shall I try for the first A time?
And for the rest A times?

As for the late WU and BT we do it like this cause two eves per week my husband gets home at 8pm and the other two I get home at 8PM, so then we bathe him etc together. But if needs must we can change it and whoever is home that day could do it on their own...
I guess If we put him down to sleep say 7:30-8pm, he will still sleep his usual 11 hours right?

Oh and in case this is important, today he had a longer nap, only by 15 mins, when I put him down after a 1hour 15mins A cause he was SOOO cranky, and also a 50 min nap this evening. I guess his tiredness is catching up with him...?

And also, do you think his NW have anything to do with his rubbish napping?

Sorry about the million questions and thanks for being so helpful 

[Emami]

Nope, no need to interfere with BT and WU.  Just throwing some thoughts out 

I think you're right his naps today were OT catching up with him.  1hr15 is more like what you'd expect from a 2/3 month old!  Is he teething?  That always made my DD more sleepy!  But assuming he is healthy and there's nothing else going on I would probably follow his cues for a couple if days and let him sleep as and when to catch up, then try some new A times.  Have a look here:
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

I think having the short A time first thing is making him UT and then the longer A times after short naps are making him OT.  If he seems ok I would aim for 2hrs30 first thing.  That's probably too big of a jump in one go but push it out maybe 10/15 mins at a time.  I found this age quite difficult because it seems like for ages there's barely time for anything before they need to nap again, and then around 5/6 months it was like all of a sudden the A times are hard to keep up with!  I got stuck in UT/OT loops too because I was always too cautious about OT that I didn't extend them when I should.  It was like every time we got into a good routine I had to change it again!

The NWs might be from the bad naps, but there is also a growth spurt around 6 months.  Does he seem hungrier?  There's also a lot going on developmentally, plus teething... there's always something!

[CattyPads]

Thanks emami,
Ok I will do that, in fact this morning he had 2hrs 10mins A and he looked rather tired (I thought it was gonna be easier!), then he slept his usual 35mins. Then a other 2hrs 05mins and napped 25 mins, but now he has been down for an hour and a half Could this work so fast??

I will play with A times for a couple of days and let you know how we get on.

In answer to your questions, he isn't teething, and he isn't hungrier. In fact, he has always been a great eater but lately he seems soooooo bored of his milk and sometimes he doesn't even finish it! We have started giving him fruit as advised by the paediatrician, once per day.

Oh and, like another thread here started by another member,can't remember her name, my baby is an angel/textbook so he very rarely cries when tired so its very easy to miss the tiredness clues, until the rims of his eyes go very red then it's very obvious he is exhausted! I think it's very easy to get stuck in the OT/UT loop,,specially when he doesn't show signs of tiredness! The only sing I guess is tiredness is when he gets fussy...!

[CattyPads]

A little update 
I increased the first A to 2hrs 15/20 mins and his after lunch nap is 1:30 hrs sometimes even 2hours!

But now (lol it just can't be perfect can it) sometimes I seem to struggle with other naps, but he gets veeeeeeeery tired and cranky...the naps I struggle with are usually when out, when they used to be fine not long ago! So now our EASY looks like this...

Wake up 08:00-08:20
E 09:00
A 2hrs 20mins
S 10:30/10:40 --- 35 mins
Then around 1pm-1:30pm maybe another 35 mins, but if he doesn't he gets craaaaanky.
E 13:30
A 1,30 hrs maybe 2
S 15:00 - 1,30-2 hrs 
E 17:15
A 2-2.5 hrs
S 18:30-7 ---- 35mins sometimes struggles and again, if he doesn't, he gets v cranky.
E 20:30
Bed 20:45

Oh and, before his long nap his A tends to be shorter but he gets fussy so I let him sleep...he has recently learnt to rub his eyes when tired so I have my clue there...! Could it be cause he has got used to going down for his after lunch nap at 3pm?

What do you think to the easy? Thanks again you are a life saver! 

[Emami]

Hi, sorry your post has been here for a couple of days. I am away from home atm.  I think your routine is ok if it's working for you!  It's not the 'perfect' EASY but that's ok.  I would say your guy is getting enough sleep overall.  If you're looking for another longer nap, and the ones you struggle with tend to be when you're out, then I guess it's a case of whether you would prefer the longer sleep or to get out of the house, and finding a balance.  My DD would only catnap when we were out too and I just went with it on those days, but tried to not do it too much as I would always get better naps at home.  It gets easier as they get older and you can fit more into the A time. 

If you think you might want to tweak things a little bit and try for a longer nap at home I would wait until the new year as you probably have more people / things going on over the holidays?  But if it's important to you to stay busy then I wouldn't worry about the catnaps - he might get a little fussy sometimes but generally he's doing pretty well

Also wrt the eye rubbing - yes, it could be habitual as in he is used to when he sleeps rather than actually being tired.  But it's good to know he does it and you can watch him for cues too.  My DD rubbed her eyes quite a bit so I tended to ignore it (even when she was younger), but if she did it AND started playing with her hair then she was genuinely tired!   These days she will just go and go and go and never gives any tired signs so I just pick a time and stick with it 

[CattyPads]

Thanks emami, always so helpful! 

We are all over the place at the moment as he has started rolling over in his sleep, he gets stuck, he cries...and we are up and down most of the night!!

BUT the long nap is still in place, and he is falling asleep when out again, probably cause he is so tired from the bad night sleep!


I know I always tell you, but thanks again!! Sooo happy with the long nap!