What's going on here?

[rochelleperales]

My daughter is 5 months( and 1 week). She is on a 4 hr. EASY. I am on day 2 of sleep training with 1 arm out of her swaddle. My dd is now going to sleep for nap and bedtime totally independently. When she has woken throughout the night, she has put herself back to sleep w a little bit of fussing. The first problem is, is that I give her dreamfeed at 11:00pm, she still wakes 4 hrs later wanting to nurse. I know she should be able to go at least 7 hrs. after the dreamfeed at her age. Last night I did a dreamfeed at 10:45 (she woke for it, and was acting hungry) and didn't even last the full 4 hrs from her last bedtime feed. I really wanted her to go back to sleep for at least a couple of minutes first because we are in the middle of sleep training her and I didn't want her to think she was going to nurse every time she woke. But I ended up nursing her, then the woke 4 hours later wanting to nurse. Then again at 7am wake up. Shouldn't she be able to last longer than 4 hrs at night?

Also,Even though she is finally FINALLY sleeping past the 45 min mark the last two days, her first a.m nap is still shorter than it should be. With my older ones, their first nap was the longest until they transitioned into one nap. With my two yr. old, he slept 2- 2.5 hrs. for his first nap at her age. Her first nap yesterday was 1hr. 23 min., and today was 1hr. 13 min. Yesterday her EASY was:
wake: 7:26 a.m ( was going to wake her up at 7am to start her routine, but older kids were out of school and I overslept)
E-7:30
A 7:26-9:28 2hrs. 02 min TOTAL
S 9;28- 10:50 1hr. 23 min.
A
E 11:30
A 2 hrs. 40 min. TOTAL
S 1:30 -3:30 2hrs. (she woke at 20 min mark then went back to sleep by herself! Yey!)
E 2:30
A 2 hrs. 30 min
S 6:04-6:34 30 min. catnap (she woke by herself)
A bath 1HR. 26 MIN TOTAL
E-7pm
Bed -put her down at 7:52pm, she fell asleep at 8pm.
Woke after 40 min. fussed and went back to sleep
woke for  her dreamfeed at 10:45
woke to nurse at 3ish
I woke her up at 7am
E-7:00
A 2hr.14 min
S 9:14-10:29 1hr. 13 min
A
E 11:00
A 2 hrs. 17 min.
S 12:40 (she just woke up at the 30 min mark and is mantra fussing, hopefully she will go back to sleep

What I am noticing is, it is taking longer than I expected for her to go to sleep, so her awake time is kinda long. Should I have encouraged her to sleep longer, and extend her morning nap, or go ahead and get her up since the nap was longer than a hour. Yesterday after her 1hr. 23 min nap I went ahead and got her up. But today it was even shorter. 1hr. 13 min. How can I get her naps longer? I understand she is just now learning to self soothe herself to sleep so it might take a while..

Not sure if she is OT or UT or if I am waiting to long to put her her down, or if she still hasn't mastered the self soothing yet, and if I should extend the nap to at least 1.5 hrs. or take her out since it is over an hour.

[weaver]

You've a couple of questions here so I'll try to address them and see if we can get some other eyes too.

Shouldn't she be able to last longer than 4 hrs at night?

While usually babies go for longer at night than during the day, the fact that she's waking up after 4 hours, and waking in anticipation of the DF, seems to me to indicate that she's hungry.  If it were quicker than that (2 hours or so), I would say to consider something else, but in this case, I'd feed her.  Perhaps she's having a growth spurt?  Or, perhaps she needs a bit more during the day?  Has she recently moved over to 4 hours?

As for her naps, honestly, they're fine.  If she's happy in herself, I really wouldn't worry about the nap being a bit shorter than 1 hr 30.   She's moving towards dropping that 3rd nap (catnap) so it's normal enough that the other two naps are getting a bit shorter.  In fact, that is a good sign for you that she may need to drop the catnap quite soon.  She's doing really well resettling herself too.  I would push her A times a bit in the near future, as average A for 5 months is anywhere between 2 hrs and 2 hr 30 mins, and that will also move you quite naturally towards just 2 naps.

HTH.

[Skadiver13]

Last night I did a dreamfeed at 10:45 (she woke for it, and was acting hungry) and didn't even last the full 4 hrs from her last bedtime feed.

Hi Hun, you may have two issues. At some point some lo's tend to start anticipating the DF and wake for it. You could try moving it 15M earlier especially if she's taking a full feed she may just be hungry and that way you'll catch her before she wakes... Secondly if she's taking a full feed after 4hrs in the middle of the night than hunger is what's waking her.  The rule of thumb especially if she's just moving over to a 4hr easy is anything less than 4hrs then I would resettle first and then if she wakes again with in 30min than it's hunger (this doesn't include the DF). If it's after 4hrs then I would try to feed and if she takes a full feed you know she's hungry. At her age my lo was still doing 3 feeds at night (we didn't do a DF). Dropped to 2 at 7 months. So it's not uncommon.

[rochelleperales]

Oh my gosh! Things pretty much spiraled out of control. Things were looking good yesterday, day two of sleep training. After her first 1hr. 13 min nap, I left her sucking on her lovey and she was kinda mantra crying. Then she started getting upset so I sat next to the crib, and shh her and periodically patted her for 15 20 min. By then I knew she probably wouldn't go back to sleep. So I took her out.

2 hrs. and 17 min. later she fell asleep for her second nap. Woke after 30 min. and DID NOT go back to sleep on her own like she did yesterday. She fussed a little, I went in, did the same as before. I shh'd her and patted intermittedly. After 1hr, I brought her in so I could de- stress. Nursed her. Then put her down for the night at 6:30 pm. and she fell asleep by 7:00pm 30 min. earlier than normal.

 She woke at 30 min mark AGAIN and I went in and did the same. She went back to sleep in 15 minutes and woke again a hour later, and I went in and sat next to her again. No interaction, just periodically shh and pat.  We will see how the rest of the night goes.

So she had one 1hr. 13 min nap and one 30 min. nap the whole day!! That is horrible and very discouraging. That is less than when I was APOPing her back to sleep after the 45 min nap. She was doing 45 min naps with a 10 min break in between when I rocked her back to sleep and put her down and she woke 45 min later. BUT it was taking a lot of my time away form my other kids, spending half my day in there, so decided to bite the bullet and sleep train. Plus my older son just stopped taking 45 min naps around 5 months, so I thought she would also. Guess not.
 I really don't know what I am doing wrong. I OT? UT? Too much awake time, not enough awake time? I don't know anymore. And I am tearing up here. It was going so well yesterday. At least she is going to sleep independently.

[rochelleperales]

OK so...last night after I put her down, she woke at 30 min. mark, 1 hr. mark, and then slept until 10 pm ish at which time I knew she was hungry because she nursed around 6pm before I put her to bed early for the night( was going to go in anyway and dreamfeed) I nursed her, put her back down awake, she went back to sleep. She woke crying at 2am to nurse (4hrs later) then she woke again crying at 5am. I knew she couldnt be hungry at 5am because it had not been 4 hrs yet, so I went in and sat next to her crib again...sigh. Fell asleep around 5:40am, knowing she would be hungry around 6am (4hrs after her 2am feed.) It is 6:23 am right now and she has yet to wake up. So hopefully she will last until 7am wakeup to nurse.

Well she woke at 6:30am and I fed her. He wake up time is 7am. I tried to give her a light feed of a couple of minutes and then the plan was to put her down until 7am. Then do a dramatic wake up at 7am. BUT, she was starving and she didn't want to stop, so I fed her a full feed, and put her back down for 15 min. until 7am. She talked to herself until 7am when I went to go get her. Then I topped her off w a light feed. So her wake up time this morning is 6:30.

I just put her down and I was not keeping up w the time, preoccupied with my 2yr old. and she went down probably too late. By the time she fell asleep it was 2hrs and 32 min. sigh..hope this doesn't backfire.  It is also because she woke at 6:30 instead of 7am and went down at regular nap time of 9am.

My question is now, while I am sleep training, I think is is very confusing for her to wake up and cry, and then I pick her up and nurse her sometimes and then other times, expect her to go back to sleep. Last night if it had been 4 hrs form last feed, I fed her. But if she cried before the 4 hrs in between feeds I went to her and did not pick her up.
What do I do about this?

Should we post this in the EASY board since her nap problems may be EASY problems?

[rochelleperales]

Ugh...I AM SO TIRED OF THIS! I am about to give up and go back to APOPing again. At least then she had 2 45 min naps with a 15 break in between when I rocked her back to sleep. She woke at 30 min again and is mantra fussing right now...AYE! SO TIRED OF THIS! What am I doing wrong? She is going to sleep totally independently!

[weaver]

Sorry, got to run, but is there chance she's sick? If so, I would hold off sleep training for now. Back later!

[rochelleperales]

Thanks for responding...I'm drowning here. I thought of that, but I checked her for temperature, and she is not fussy in between naps. She finally went to sleep! She woke at 30 min. mark and just went back to sleep 30 min later with me sitting there next to her finally. whew! It's exhausting. 30 minutes for her to go back to sleep from a 30 min nap. Aye.

[weaver]

Hey there, sorry you're feeling so discouraged.

Let me ask some questions to clear things up for me a bit.  You say you're on day two (now three, I suppose) of sleep training.  Does that mean that three days ago you 'put' LO on 4 hr EASY for feeds and naps?  What was she doing before that?  I'm just wondering if perhaps the change has been too much for her and she still wants/needs to eat more, which is waking her at night and perhaps disturbing her a bit in the day. 

The pattern of improving naps for two days and then everything going to pot is *completely normal*!   Don't panic.  I suspect that she has built up some OT, due to changes, and NWs, and therefore is going for the classic OT 30 minute nap.  As well as self-settling, some babies need to be taught how to transition through sleep cycles.  Now, your LO was doing a great job there for a few days, so I think she knows how to do it, it's just a question of getting the balance of her day right. 

These may help:
Starting EASY - all you need to know and more!
Sample EASY Routines from 0 - 13mths+

HTH.

[Skadiver13]

Also wanted to ask you say she's fussing so you go in. Could you be going in too soon? If she's mantra crying I would just leave her to it.

[weaver]

Also wanted to ask you say she's fussing so you go in. Could you be going in too soon? If she's mantra crying I would just leave her to it.

Good point!
Recognising a Babies Cries

[rochelleperales]

Thanks so much for helping.
She has been on a 4 hr. EASY for a couple of weeks, as she was not acting hungry at 3.5 hrs anymore. She is 23 weeks old ( if you go by due date 22 weeks). So I am wondering if need to up the A time or something. As far as her naps today and yesterday they have all been 30 min long. She woke for her first one at 30 min. and then mantra fussed, and then after about 20 min. of  fussing, finally fell back to sleep. Same thing for nap #2. I am on edge all day just waiting for her to wake at 30 or 40 min. Wondering if weaned the swaddle too early. She has one arm out so she will learn to self soothe
If she is mantra fussing I leave her. Only when she gets really upset, I will go in there and sit next to the crib. No interaction except an occasional pat or shh.

[rochelleperales]

Now you got me thinking on the 4 hour EASY and wanting more like you mentioned. Her second nap, she woke at 30 min. fussed for about 20 min then slept for another 30 min. at which time she woke hungry (it had been 4 hrs.) I wonder if she would have slept longer second half of her nap if she wasn't hungry. But she is not too interested in nursing at 3.5 hrs.
Ahh! I don't know.

[rochelleperales]

 I think I'm going to have to start with some oatmeal (definitely not rice,that always constipated my son) after nursings to see if that helps. I am just grasping at straws here. She is almost 5.5 months and my son (the tank ) started at 5 months on the recommendation of my pediatrician. I really wanted to do BLW, but I don't think she would be able to pick up chunks yet. I don't know if this is part of the problem or not. I am very confused and tired of all this.

[rochelleperales]

I give up...
She won't get it.