Author Topic: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW  (Read 1836 times)

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Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« on: January 10, 2014, 06:47:37 am »
We're in a bit of a mess  :( My 10 month old is LSN, most of the way through the 2-1 and I think is now OT after an accidental late night following a spell of one nap days a week ago.  The only trouble is, 2 nap days seem to be making the NWs worse so not sure how to fix it.

How old is your child?
10 months

What’s his/her daily routine?
Not really got one atm as doing mix of 1 and 2 nap days.

Most recent one nap day:
WU: 6ish
A: 5 hrs
S: 2hrs 20 (11.05 - 1.25)
A:5 hrs 20
S: 6.45 (though normally aim for 6.30)

2 nap days are always different but he won't go down before 4hrs / 4 hrs 15 A time and generally sleep within 4 hrs of bedtime (even as a cat nap) gives EW or NWs. He usually does a good nap after 4hrs 30 A time if ill or OT and I usually have to AP the other nap. Tried a mixture of long AM and short AM.

What’s nap routine?
Into sleeping bag, 1/2 stories,  lights out,  white noise on,  song and bed.

How long are naps?
Generally 1.5 - 2 hrs on 4hrs 30 - 5hrs A time but shorter if goes down earlier than this and needs resettle if goes down later.  But little consistency and sometimes will do UT or OT naps even in this A time range depending on how tired he is.

What's bedtime routine? Time?
Same as nap routine but bath first and bottle just before stories. 6.30 on one nap day and up to 7.30 on 2 nap day (which gives very long day as only do 2 naps if he EWs)

Do you bottle or breastfed??
Bottle

How much? or how long?
6 / 7 oz at 6/6.30 am,  another at 11ish if doing one nap or 1.30ish if doing two Last bottle about 20 mins before BT.

How many wakes per night?
Since late night a week ago we're getting 1 or 2 nws at 8.30 / 9 which he settles himself from but only 10 hr night (usually 11-11.5 hrs on one nap day). After 2 nap day we're getting 1/2 wus between 8 and 11 but I need to go in and resettle, plus we get another, longer nw which we need to resettle at around 2.

What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up?
Does fussy cry mostly.  Settles if we go in but unless asleep again within 10 minutes is up for at least an hour.  Often cries every 5 minutes. When we're in there he'll either cry on and off (or when we try and leave), or he'll start chatting to himself. Previous to this week, we were getting 2hr nws after 2 nap days but these have shortened this week.

When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry?
Try to wait til cry escalates but often it's a moany fussy cry on and off for 45 mins - 1 hr and then escalates.

What have you tried to settle??
Sit by cot and sshh and repeat sleepy phrase. Stroke head briefly if very worked up. When he calms attempt to leave (one step back). Stay til calm again.  Go back to cot if cries escalate.  Often give meds if not resettled within 15/20 minutes. Have tried feeding at EW once or twice but only effect is to stop him crying afterwards. Makes for a happier hour before I get him up but that's it!

What do you do for A time and how long is it?
Anything between 3hrs 40 if APing and 5hrs. Mostly at home cruising, playing or more recently, crawling.  Or watching big sister!

Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones?
Also started crawling this week.  Is trying to pull up too and gaining confidence cruising.  No teething atm.

Do they have a prop? If so what is it?
No prop.

Do they have a lovie?
Yes, a muslin.

We're in a bit of a mess  :( My 10 month old is LSN, most of the way through the 2-1 and I think is now OT after an accidental late night following a spell of one nap days.  The only trouble is, 2 nap days seem to be making the NWs worse so not sure how to fix it.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 07:21:07 am by LovelyLilyandJack »



Offline Skadiver13

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2014, 17:57:10 pm »
Hi hun when you are doing a second nap when is it and are you capping it? How short are you making it? Have you tried doing a short AM long PM?
My dreamed for Angel Baby DD (other than dreaded 40min naps) Born 4/30/16
Reflux, MSPI, Love my Spirited,textbook little munchkin DS Born 5/17/2012



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Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2014, 20:21:18 pm »
We did try the following for about a month in between 1 nap days:

WU: 5.30 - 6
Nap 1 set @ 9.30 - 10
Nap 2 at 1.30ish for 1.5 hours if he'd do it
Bedtime at 7

But he always EW'd after it (but doesn't on a one nap day) and after a day or two would start fighting every nap and bedtime so we weren't getting him down til 7.30 and were spending a lot of time listening to crying in the dark.  Eventually he just refused that morning nap altogether (I used to try for half an hour).

Now I mostly cap at 1.5 hours in the morning and 20-30 minutes in the afternoon. Or I just let him sleep in the morning and try and AP an afternoon nap at 3 / 3.30.  So a capped 2 nap day would be:

WU: 5.30
A: 4hrs 30
S: 1.5 hrs capped (or let him sleep til 11.30 at the latest)
A: 3hrs 20 is the shortest A I've managed here.  This is the A time he's most likely to shorten. I've normally managed to AP by 3hrs 45
S: 20 minutes most recently.  This gave shorter / fewer nws than allowing 30 minutes here.  This usually falls at around 2.45 - 3.15ish
A: About 4 hours
S: Aim for 7 - 7.15.




Offline Skadiver13

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2014, 00:13:10 am »
I'll be honest I would hold on to that Cat nap as long as possible. For a good month and a half I had to apop my ds's CN in the afternoon. He never did well with a CN in the AM so we did a full nap in the morning uncapped (usually 1.5hrs) then a short 20-30min cn in the afternoon I would rock him for.  I think what might be happening is you have too much A time after such a short CN in the afternoon and he might be slightly OT. At this age I would think you'd want to do something like

W: 5:30
S:10-11:30
S:3-3:30
BT:6:30

You want to do a shorter A time after a CN.

That's a 13hr day on two naps and hopefully an 11hr night. If you start getting normal 11hr nights you can start pushing that first  nap towards 10:30 and BT towards 7 and so on until you get the wakeup you want. But honestly a 10.5hr night on two naps is not an EW. That's on the lower end of sleep needs but that's exactly what my lo did on 2 naps. And if your lo is LSN than it's not abnormal and you just need to push that first nap out maybe 30min and get the BT pushed 30min and you'll get a 7:30-6/6:30 type of night.

The apoping the CN is annoying but sometimes with a lsn's baby that's just what you got to do.  At 12 months we said forget it and went to set nap/set bt with the occasional catch up CN but really stuck with the one nap as much as possible. Hope this makes sense.
My dreamed for Angel Baby DD (other than dreaded 40min naps) Born 4/30/16
Reflux, MSPI, Love my Spirited,textbook little munchkin DS Born 5/17/2012



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Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2014, 05:57:03 am »
Yes that does make sense - I'll try it today.  Last time we did a cat nap that close to bed we were getting 2hr nws at around 3am. He'd eventually resettle, only sleep 40 minutes and treat it as a nap and EW the next day as well. But he wasn't OT then and maybe something else was going on as well. We'll see what he does tonight.

I think you're right that eventually we need to push bedtime back as well.  We've been stuck with 5.30 starts for over 2 months now though - it still feels miles off!



Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2014, 06:40:39 am »
Well that went ok, but based on past experience I'm not sure we'll be able to repeat it cos I definitely have a very well rested boy this morning :) Yesterday we had:

WU: 5.20
A: 4hrs 50 (pd at 4hrs 25 but took a while to go to sleep - just alternately chatting and moaning)
S: 10.10 - 11.40, so 1.5hrs but had to resettle at 40 minutes. He woke himself.
A: 3hrs 45 (in buggy from a bit under 3hrs A time)
S: 3.25 - 3.45. I capped this at 20 minutes instead of 30 cos it was so late.
A: 3hrs 50, but pd after 3 hrs
S: Finally asleep by 7.35. Was quiet for most of the time between pd and sleep with the occasional fussy cry.
Cried out at 8.25.
WU this morning chatting at 5.35.

That's a fairly typical 2 nap day for us tbh.  We always end up with a 14 hour day when we do 2 naps, no matter what I do in the day. The only time in the last 2 months he's done a shorter day / longer night on 2 naps is when he's been ill.   I think if I try and repeat it today though I'll get a 40-50 minute nap in the morning and/or major nap and bedtime resistance and/or long nws tonight. That's how it usually goes. He went into yesterday already tired I suspect from another accidentally long one nap day on Friday. I don't think I'll get away with reduced A times again today.

Is a 14 hour day and 2 x shorter naps really better than one nap, seeing as I'm pretty confident he needs 5hrs A time in the morning for a reliably good nap, and can do another 4hrs 45 after his nap before tired signs start? I'm never sure which is the lesser evil - 2 shorter A times / naps and a long day, or one long nap but longer A times.

I don't get the WUs shortly after bedtime though. Could they be developmental?  Or even UT since I've done a lot more 2 nap days in case of OT since that accidental late night last week?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 07:07:19 am by LovelyLilyandJack »



Offline Skadiver13

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2014, 11:18:18 am »
Hi hun I think what you  nigh be missing is the CN can be an UT nap. So he does a full A in the morning amd a good 1.5hr nap then a shorter A forced CN then a shorter A to bt. So on a good day.

Wake 6
Nap: 11-12:30
Nap: 4-4:20/30
Sleep 7.

Its ok for the second nap to be UT it keeps him from being OT till BT. Alternately its the Sam if you did a cn in the am
wake: 6
Nap: 9:30-10
Nap:12:30-2
Bt 7

If he is lan and will it do 10.5hr nights then extend the A before is cn by 30min

The point is to keep the a time long to get a good full nap and short after cn since he's not fully rested.
My dreamed for Angel Baby DD (other than dreaded 40min naps) Born 4/30/16
Reflux, MSPI, Love my Spirited,textbook little munchkin DS Born 5/17/2012



**Siobhan**

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2014, 20:06:10 pm »
Thanks.  The problem I have with him is that no matter when I put him down,  or start him off in the car, I can't get him to sleep any earlier than the times I posted yesterday.  He just fights it for longer if I put him down earlier, or if I'm APing, just looks around not going to sleep!  I have tried much lower A times in the past but he'll do one short A a day (e.g. For an UT cn), but then wants a long A for all his other awake times.  That said, I'm willing to try it all again, as long as the 2hr nws don't come back!  I did do the long AM day you suggested today and we got:

WU: 5.45
A: 5hrs 15 (this was a bit too long actually, and had already pd when I saw your message)
S: 11 - 12.15. 1hr 15. Woke grumpy so OT I reckon, or teeth cos OH didn't give any meds before this nap.
A: 3hrs 40
S: 3.55 - 4.15 (In car from  3.25 but wouldn't sleep any earlier)
A: 3hrs 15 in the end, but pd after 2hrs 40.
S: pd at 7 but chatted / cried til 7.30 again.

When you say if he is lsn to extend the A before the cn by 30 minutes,  do you mean (in the long AM example) to try a cn at 4.30 - 5 instead of 4 - 4.30? And then 7.30 bedtime?

Also, I noticed last night that he's cutting his last front bottom tooth, and tonight felt his molars and 2 of them are also cutting so if we get a rough night tonight it may be teething related. He's dosed up though - for the next few hours at least! 



Offline TB9

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2014, 02:03:24 am »
Hopefully you get a good night!

Can you go by cues to get him through the rest of the transition?  I imagine with teeth coming in he will be a little more sleepy, but at least if you go by cues you wont run the risk of ut/ot, yk?  We are in a stretch of 1 nap days right now, but what I was doing before for 2 nap days was letting dd sleep for am nap, then pm cn when tired for 20-30min, bed when tired (usually around 8:30, which put her at 3.5-3hr45min A before bed).  If she got to 5pm and hadnt been tired for cn then I just pushed through as close to 7pm bedtime as I could get.  I know J doesnt usually sleep as long in the am as dd does so you might have to change the times that I gave to make it work for you!

 I tried the ut cn with shorter A to bed with dd1 and it never worked for her...she is also lsn and spirited.  It just gave lots of nws and ews.  So far, just going by cues has worked out well for dd2, even on those 2 nap days it hasnt resulted in theamount of nws I had with dd1.  With dd1 I tried long am nap, 3-3.5hrs A before cn, AP cn, then 3hrs before bed.  It never worked, and if I tried that with dd2 she would be so mad she would puke all over me...the only thing that has worked is following their lead  ;)

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 06:05:49 am »
I think you might be right tbh, tink.  I can see his tired signs much more easily in the afternoon than the morning for some reason and most days can get a 2hr plus nap out of him on around 5hrs A time so if that all falls early in the day and he's tired by 4 I could do a cn, and if he seems ok do an EBT instead.  At least then I'm not capping the AM and PM naps. The only one I find hard to judge is bedtime cos we've always done a set BT and only varied it by 30 minutes unless OT. Do you just start bath and BT routine when you start seeing tired signs?  The amount of times we've put J to bed without seeing any - I quite like the idea of following cues a bit more.

10 hr night again last night, just to finish off my post from yesterday. He's woken up quite happy though.  He stirred at around 9.30 too, and also woke properly at 11.30, when I went in and gave more calpol etc. He then slept til 5.30ish.



Offline TB9

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2014, 13:43:32 pm »
We do bath right after dinner because that is when dd1 has bath.  Then we feed her last bottle when she is hungry, bed as soon as she shows tired signs after that.  So she is all ready to go for bedtime, and we just let her play in her pjs until she is tired  :)

Right now with her 1 nap days she is doing 4hr45min-5hrs A in the am, then 5.5-6hrs A in the pm.  We usually get a good nap and night with that, very minimal nws and sometimes she will sleep right through to 7:30am.  Lastnight was an exception and she had a longish nw, but she slept in this morning to make up for it, and is happily chatting in her crib right now, so probably another 1 nap day for us!

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2014, 17:14:56 pm »
I might try following Jack a bit more then.  He did one nap long today (was in the car at 4 - 4.30ish but he didn't sleep).  I was planning an EBT at 6 but it's 5 now and he's absolutely fine.  So maybe I'll get him ready for bed but just let him sit with me and Lily and listen to her stories etc. until he looks tired.  I'm sure he will be tired by then anyway tbh - he usually needs to be in bed by 6.30 on a one nap day anyway.



Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2014, 06:39:52 am »
I think you could be onto something here,  tink.... Put him down at 6.35 in the end cos although he didn't look especially tired, he was starting to chill out a bit which is his first tired sign.  He was asleep within 5 minutes (not had that at bedtime for months!) and slept 11 hours without any nws at all :D

I'll keep you posted....



Offline TB9

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2014, 13:25:02 pm »
 ;D

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: 10 month old mid 2-1 NW and EW
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2014, 15:11:49 pm »
The thing is to be able to read his tired signs in the morning.  I always find that harder....