PUPD & Gradual retreat working but EW issue!!

[babygrunt]

Hello,

I'm over from the PUPD forum and we suspect we have a routine issue. My LO is 11 months old and was nearly wholly reliant upon props (breast feeding/walking) to help her sleep until recently. We are doing a combination of PUPD and gradual retreat and so far she can settle herself with us half way between the cot and the door, but we return to the cot side to sooth her when she is crying.

The problem is she wakes very early and there is no settling her!! She can be up as early as 4am!!! Today it was 4.20 am! We have a rule that she does not leave her room until 5.30am so after DH attempts to settle her (she cried the whole time) I usually breast feed her then sit next to her cot until 5.30 am where she cries and cries, then we say hello to Mr Sun. 

Her routine yesterday was:
WU 4.50am
E 5 am
leave the room 5.30 am
breakfast 6.30 am
S 8.50 am - 10.15
E snack
A 3hrs during which time lunch happened (it was three hours because DH miscalculated the time, I was away for the day for the first time so no BF either)
S 1.25 pm - 2.15 pm
E snack 2.30
E BF at 5 (wasn't really fussed about feeding)
E tea at 5.45
6.30pm S

Needed resettling at 9, 10, 11 pm then up at 4.20 am for the day.

The above EASY is typical with respect to the EW and two naps. She usually as a 3.5 - 4 hr A time and sleeps for 2-3 hours over the course of the day.

This morning she went down at 8.30 for her nap and is still asleep now!!

Thanks for reading.

[Buttonbobs]

It sounds to me like the day sleep is robbing from the night sleep, but that overall she's very OT because none of the sleeps are very regenerative. Would you agree?

By this age, my DD only really wanted one long nap and one shorter. It seems your morning nap is the better of the two. Would you try moving that first nap a bit later and see if it gets any longer. You could also then go for an UT CN like you have already in the afternoon and go for BT perhaps a bit earlier.

For people in this position, I would normally suggest going for an EBT during this period if the LO is OT but I suspect you'd rather a later BT and later WU if possible. What about keeping shifting that first nap later not only in the hope it lengthens but also the hope that she wakes up later. What do you think?

[babygrunt]

Hi Buttonbobs,

Thanks for your help. Well she woke many times during the night and was awake for the day at 4.50!! She was clearly very tired but despite a feed and a hushing next to the cot there was no settling her so she was up for the day at 5.30 am. Yesterday went like this:

WU: 4.20am
E 5am bf in dark
left her room at 5.30
S 8.30 - 10.30
E
A
S 2.45- 3.50
E
A
Bed time 6.45 asleep by 7.

Today we decided on a 4hr 10 min A time before beginning the settling process for her nap. So she was up at 4.50 am and was asleep by 9.25 am for her nap. She was very tired!! Took a little longer to settle her but then again we are in the middle of sleep training too! She has just woken up! Was only asleep for an hour and 5!! I'm guessing it's because she is OT??

Will keep you posted! Will do the UT cat nap probs at about 3 hrs. 

Thanks for reading

[Buttonbobs]

Ok, keep going as planned for today and then we'll reassess after BT if that's ok. It is normal for LOs to not always do brilliantly with naps as you ST. Hugs x

[babygrunt]

Hiya buttonbobs,

So yesterday for the UT cat nap she did 1hr 30 mins, she was asleep by 2 pm. Bed time was 6.45 pm, she was awake at 12.30 for an hour and a half. DH sat by her door all of that time while she settled herself. She was just lying in her cot awake, dozing for a bit and waking up. We can't leave her to it yet when like that because she cries and we are doing gradual retreat. She was briefly awake at 3 then up for the day at 5am. She was shattered but even a BF and hushing by the cot and holding her hand cannot send her off. So this is today

WU 5am
BF
Leave her room at 5.30am
S 9.30 am - 11.05 am (we started settling her at 4 hr 10 min A time but it took her a while to settle)
E
A
S 2.25 pm - 3.40 pm
E
A
Bed 6.45

Fingers crossed we get more sleep at some point!! DD is very tired and we think teething again so we have been giving her meds.

Thanks for reading

[Buttonbobs]

That NW could well have been a bit UT. Obviously after the disturbed night she might well have been OT after that. I do think you really need I make one of the naps shorter. A CN would usually be one sleep cycle or less, so no more than 45 mins. Do you want to go for the morning or afternoon for nap capping?

[babygrunt]

Hiya,

Thanks so much for the help. I think you are right! I think the second nap needs to be the cat nap because she gets tired more quickly in the morning and is generally easier to put down then.

Last night she woke up at 11.30 for a bit but then slept through until 5.25 am...not done that in a while! I kept her in her room until 6am having a BF and a cuddle then we were up for the day. Started settling her for her nap at 9.35 am and she was asleep 10 minutes later. She was very upset about it though  , I gave her more support than usual, staying by her cot side. When she fell asleep though I was not touching her and had taken a step back. It could be her teeth bothering her. There is no sign of anything coming though but for days and days she has had the flushed cheeks and is biting everything in site! Think she will get a few teeth at the same time, she has 7 already.

Shall we go for an UT nap this afternoon?

Thanks again 

[anna*]

Hey! I'd also push that morning nap later. Probably not before 10am no matter how early she wakes up. Having the morning nap too early can reinforce EWs. What do you think Naomi?

[Buttonbobs]

Shall we go for an UT nap this afternoon?

I'd definitely give it a go.

Probably not before 10am no matter how early she wakes up. Having the morning nap too early can reinforce EWs. What do you think Naomi?

I agree. Thanks Anna

Good luck x

[babygrunt]

Great advice, from tomorrow I will move her first nap to 10 am. Thanks for continuing to follow Anna.

Today has been horrible though!! She did an hour and 10 mins for her first nap which took her to about 10.50 am. I started trying to settle her at 2pm for nap two. It was awful. She was so very upset and the nap was abandoned at 40 minutes. I had to do a little APOP. We went for a drive so she could have a 30 mins cat nap and I woke her at 3.40 pm. We went for a 7pm bedtime and after 20 mins she was asleep.

Fingers crossed for tonight eeek.

[Buttonbobs]

Sounds like you did the right things hun x

[babygrunt]

Well things are not going too well!! She woke last night at 1am, 3am and 4am but settled relatively quickly. She was up for the day at 5.15  . I kept her in her room for half an hour having a BF and a cuddle. She was OT this morning in that manic kind of way! Still managed to keep her up until 10 am, we went for a walk and this calmed her down nicely. She was out quick at 10 am but cried herself to sleep so was not able to make it to the door on our gradual retreat...then she was awake after 30 mins!!! She has not done this in months and months, she is usually down for an hour at least. I'm guessing she was just very OT. There was no settling her, even took her for a drive but she did not drop off!

So the plan today was to treat this morning as the cat nap, get on with our day and I put her down at 2pm for nap 2. Fingers crossed she gets a decent sleep!!

So what do you think?! Are we lost causes 
x

[anna*]

What do you think about cutting the early morning BF? I mean if she was going back to sleep after I would say for sure, but I think she thinks it is breakfast and worth waking up for. Then I would do no BF, no cuddles, nothing until 6am. Just treat it the same as you would at 2am.

Definitely not lost causes. The good thing about the long nap/short nap combo when you arein the 2-1 is is that if one of the naps is short it doesn't really matter too much.

[Buttonbobs]

Definitely not lost causes. The good thing about the long nap/short nap combo when you arein the 2-1 is is that if one of the naps is short it doesn't really matter too much.

((Hugs)) honey, this journey from 2-1 is a hard one, and you've come so far already. I took a look at your PU/PD thread and you and your LO have worked so hard, only a little way to go.

[babygrunt]

thanks for the boost guys!! Well she only slept for an hour and five this afternoon and was sooo tired but there is just no settling her when she is like that!! I attempted a slightly earlier bedtime of 6.30 pm but with her messing around she was not asleep until 7. We have given her more meds this evening because her cheeks have gone really red again so there could be a tooth on the way.

Anna, I get where you are coming from about that early morning bf....but I'm scared!! until a few days ago DH would try to settle her at that time and the minute he walks in the room she goes crazy and sooooo upset. It's worse than she gets for any of her naps, she was shaking and crying tears even when DH picked her up. He even tried walking with her. DH can settle her in the night and for naps no problem, it's like she has an internal alarm clock that goes  off at 5 am and only mummy will do. I think even if i go to her it would be awful because she gets so excited when she sees me and makes the noise she makes when she wants food. Is there any way I can do this without total trauma?? Could we start with maybe a gradual delay before the feed?