Low sleep needs or wrong routine?

[Layla]

Sorry, didn't realise he sleeps in the car...must have missed that. When were you thinking of sleep training? In reality he probably will have short nap but once he gets used to sleeping in his cot, he'll start to sleep longer.

[BusterB]

 

Well we're off to a bad start.... i put him in the cot at 2hr 45 and he fell asleep in a couple of mins. I thought i'd give W2S a shot so stirred him at 23mins. Then bang - 27mins he was awake! He was just quiet, so i left him to see if he would resettle, but after 10 or so minutes of leg slamming, rubbing his head side to side and playing with his lovey he started to get upset so I tried PU/PD as he got more and more worked up - until it was time for his next feed.

I then had a sobbing baby in my arms, who hardly ate a thing  He was giving me so many tired signs that I just stuck him back in the carseat and he is now asleep. I realise I am probably re-enforcing the behaviour i'm trying to get rid of but it was just too upsetting to see him like that. It was an hour between him waking and resettling, so I presume i'll just have to wake him in half an hour so that it doesn't throw the rest of the day off (I think that's what is says in the book?) - but at least that is more sleep than he would have gotten otherwise.
 

[BusterB]

Sorry, didn't realise he sleeps in the car...must have missed that.

No not in the car - in the carseat on the floor... that has only been the last couple of weeks though. Prior to that it was in the cot for every morning nap at least, since he was 10 weeks old, so he is well used to it - he just can't do any longer than 30 mins and have never resettled.

[Layla]

If it were me, I would just bite the bullet and forget the car seat and do all naps in the cot because as you mentioned, eventually you're going to have to do naps in the cot (if that's your final goal) and you'll end up with 30min naps anyway. Do you think he would respond well to shh/pat... it doesn't have to be pu/pd just because he's at the age where its recommended, if you know what I mean. My little Jenny still responds best to shh/pat, or a variation of it. If you're going to be sleep training in the cot, chances are he won't be able to do the full A and you will have to shorten it.

[BusterB]

Did he always do exactly 30 minutes in his cot,  or was it more like 35?

Once upon a time he was doing between 30-45, but it gradually reduced and reduced. For December and beginning of Jan we were down to between 26-28 minutes, which I was led to believe was OT? Sounds like that's probably not the case though as he was waking up happy. However today he was at almost 3 hours awake and still woke at 27 minutes and wasn't crying.... not sure how much further I should be pushing it?? Obviously the A times are just fine when he is napping in the carseat as he does 2 hours - so I'm not even 100% sure this is A time related really?

Have you tried swaddling in the cot?  He might sleep better there if he feels confined like in the car seat? Or was he napping while the car was in motion and it was that keeping him asleep?

Swaddling is a no unfortunately as he can roll. But we did try it earlier on and he hated it. Has always loved having his hands completely free. He sucks his fingers and plays with his lovey when he is settling to sleep.

And I know exactly how it feels to spend hours in a dark room with a crying baby I was exactly where you are,  except I couldn't AP so had no choice but to stick with the cot.  My only advice on that is to only try and extend one nap a day, just to preserve your sanity.  I always work on getting our first A time right and work from there. For the rest I assume short naps and just get on with the day.

Very good advice and it was the tactic I was trying in Dec and Jan until it all just got a bit much and I resorted to the APing in the carseat to give us both a break. I think now I know that he is capable of the long naps & have seen the benefits in such a happy and rested little man, it is even more upsetting when he wakes up after less than 30 mins.

It just honestly feels like he has no idea how to get back to sleep in the cot. I have always held out that it must be developmental - but having had such an easy time getting him to sleep for 2 hours in the carseat, I presume that can't be the case?! It is just something to do with being in the cot itself?

I can't even get him to the point I can HTTJ, because he is not napping long enough to get to the jolts!

[BusterB]

Do you think he would respond well to shh/pat... it doesn't have to be pu/pd just because he's at the age where its recommended, if you know what I mean. My little Jenny still responds best to shh/pat, or a variation of it. If you're going to be sleep training in the cot, chances are he won't be able to do the full A and you will have to shorten it.

The patting was always way too stimulating, so we use white noise with some ssshing and rub his head. I tried all of that today - at first when he really fussed he wasn't really upset enough to do PU/PD so I just sssshed and rubbed and that got him really worked up to the point that I needed to PU/PD. Have tried all this many times in the past too - hence how I got to the point a couple of weeks ago, that I just had to do something different (AP in the carseat) as I felt like a crazy person doing the same thing again and again and again for weeks and getting absolutely nowhere! It was getting very upsetting every day and I didn't feel I was being the best mummy I could be when he was awake, as I was so anxious about it all. My Mum kept telling me I should be enjoying my baby and it just felt like naps were this neverending battle that I was never going to win - there was zero enjoyment for either of us.

The last couple of weeks have been SUCH a different story - daytimes have been so lovely. It is just that his long naps seemed to alter his night time sleep and he switched from going to sleep easily and EWUs to difficult at BT and more NWs in general.

I really don't know what to prioritise?

I'm sure the naps issue and NWs and the fact he doesn't sleep more than 10 hours a night are all connected and sorting one will sort the others, but the idea of going back to just 30 min naps (where we still had NWs, EWU and low needs for night sleep) just fills me with horror as I know both days and nights are going to be so tough.

Maybe i'm just not ready to do it yet and need to do it on a day where he slept more than 8 hours the night before - feeling a bit fragile today I think - sorry.

[BusterB]

If you're going to be sleep training in the cot, chances are he won't be able to do the full A and you will have to shorten it.

Also this rarely works with my little one unfortunately - he will just cry the extra time and end up falling asleep either at the original A time or beyond it. I was better off keeping him up the extra time and he'd go to sleep without getting so worked up and upset. I did ask earlier if this was a low sleep needs thing and LovelyLilyandJack said that her little boy was the same.....

Jack has done a lot of 34-38 minute naps which are UT for him and he always needs pretty much a full A after them as well. 

The same thing happens with early bedtimes too - so it makes his awake periods in a day of 30 minute naps massive and he is generally not the happiest baby for very long... is very hard work.

[Jodes112]

Does he have reflux? Im wondering why he sleeps better in an upright position. Or it could be just a habbit now x just a thought! X

[Layla]

It probably is a habit now but hun you know best and your mum is right in that you should enjoy your lo. You'll know when the time is right...i guess i am thinking from a practical point of view and that as he grows older and bigger, naps in the car seat may get tricky...but that's just me...

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Just sending some hugs cos I was exactly where you are now when jack was that age.  It gets all consuming and so frustrating.  So maybe today is a write off but you can start again tomorrow I'd carry on using the car seat today. Just be kind to yourself and start again whenever you feel ready. It might just be that w2s didn't work, not that everything else was wrong 

[TB9]

If he is able to do a full A after a short nap, I would guess that the nap was a ut nap.  What I found with dd2 napping in the carseat (or my arms) was it forced longer naps than she actually needed, so she ended uo having long nws

I dont think you will see improvement overall sleep wise until you move Es away from his S (the breastfeeding close to S will make him sleepy and he now relies on that to help him to sleep) and have him in his crib for naps.  It is up to you though what you want to do, and how gradually you want to do it.  We would all be happy to help you come up with a plan and the right A times, and help you through the process, when you are ready

[okinawamama]

Is it possible to do 1 nap in the carseat to try and keep some of the OT under control? Maybe first nap in the crib, with the assumption it will probably be short/30 minutes, then since he appeared to be ok with the shorter A time if he slept in the carseat you could shorten the second A time and do a long  carseat nap and then possibly a full awake time and an evening CN in the crib. That way you're still trying to make the transition to the crib but he's still getting one good nap and some of the stress of the 30 minute naps is relieved because you know that you'll get one good nap in a day. I did something similar when trying to wean DS from napping in the sling.

[BusterB]

Ladies, thank you all so much for your input - i'm truly grateful of the support and advice.

Just to clarify the carseat naps are a new thing. I've only resorted to that in the last week or 10 days, prior to that ALL morning naps (barring 2 where I had hospital apts) have been in the cot since he was 10 weeks old.

I have done phases where I did exactly as you suggest okinawamama and split the naps between the cot and some APOP to try and keep OT at bay and other weeks where all naps have been in the cot trying to really tackle the problem. However in over 10 weeks, he never slept past 45 minutes (was 30mins 95% of the time ) and never once resettled when in the cot. I really lost heart and therefore we ended up in the carseat.

I dont think you will see improvement overall sleep wise until you move Es away from his S (the breastfeeding close to S will make him sleepy and he now relies on that to help him to sleep) and have him in his crib for naps.  It is up to you though what you want to do, and how gradually you want to do it.  We would all be happy to help you come up with a plan and the right A times, and help you through the process, when you are ready

I would be so grateful for some help with a plan, I can't tell you Tinks - thank you!!

Feeding-wise we were on 4 hourly in Dec/Jan - with no top ups before naps, that is also a new thing - but my supply suddenly dropped loads 2 weeks ago and so a lactation consultant told me to feed more often and so I added in the extra feeds, which also seemed to help with the long naps

I should add that for about 6 weeks he never fed to sleep either - even if that is what I was aiming for It is quite recently (since last growth spurt?) that he started to feed to sleep again, but I think it is a routine issue as short naps and long gaps between feeds were taking their toll.

I am very happy to revert back to a 3.5 hourly though, to distance feeds from naps but keep supply up and perhaps do a cluster just in the evening or something? Would that work with the new A times etc?

[BusterB]

Does he have reflux? Im wondering why he sleeps better in an upright position. Or it could be just a habbit now x just a thought! X

No definitely no reflux Jodes112 - he is just all cosy in the carseat I think  and I presume any jolts would be cushioned so wouldnt wake him up. Also I rock it slightly when I put him in & during cycle transitions if he wakes up and he has always loved motion, so I have created a bit of a prop (although he can totally put himself to sleep in the cot without it - he did it this morning - so hopefully nothing too serious)

[TB9]

I will be back hopefully when dd2 is napping to help you come up with a plan hun 

I had to feed both girls twice during certain A times at that age, but the key will be making sure the feed is far enough away from S.  With dd1 it didnt need to be, because she was a thumb sucker and could put herself back to sleep easily.  With dd2 I had to be really really careful about keeping Es away from S, otherwise she woke and couldnt put herself back to sleep