Low sleep needs or wrong routine?

[BusterB]

Hiya LovelyLilyandJack I'm sorry, I know that you have probably given me similar instructions to these before!! I think with all the emphasis being on naps in the cot and focusing on that for the last couple of weeks, i'm just now a bit lost routine wise again - so i'm very grateful for you coming back with such a clear plan. It really sounds much more in line with how my little boy seems to operate. 

.... we were having to cap naps cos his A times were increasing so quickly.

Ok this is really useful info - as to keep to approx 2.5 hours total I figured I needed to wake him from naps as he'll do 3-4 hours otherwise, but I was also doubting myself and really wasn't sure if he was sleeping so well of his own accord, whether I should be waking him or not! (I keep hearing "never wake a sleeping baby" in my head  )

I also wasn't sure whether I should be capping both naps or just 1 - but I see below you say to cap the later one if needs be - so should I just let him sleep until he wakes up from the 1st one? Or always try and keep it to around 1.5 hours so that the second is at least an hour?

After waking him from a nap he does seems to want a shorter A time afterwards, but obviously that won't work and I presume I just have to do my best to keep him awake until enough A time has passed? Yesterday he actually passed out on my OH at 3hrs awake in the morning, which hasn't happened since he was tiny... stuff like that makes me wonder about pushing the A's so much... but i'm not sure what else to do to get him through the day but avoid UT!
 

If you think he was UT at bedtime yesterday, I would try 3hrs 20 and 3hrs 30 A's before each nap today. Plus, I know 12hr days are generally advised but we've never gotten more than an 11 / 11.5hr night here so they just weren't possible, except if J was OT and we did it as a one off. So I would plan on a 12.5 - 13 hr day (unless he has rubbish naps), and try and keep your last A to around 3hrs. If you need to slightly cut your last nap to keep a 13hr day max then I would.

I have to say that instinctively I knew that a 12 hour day would never work for us & trying it again yesterday just proved that to me. Ours have always been about 13, so I know I can work to that no probs, although it still leaves us a couple of hours 'short' with him only sleeping 9.5 overnight.....  .... no idea how to solve that maths puzzle.

I don't know what time he woke up this morning unfortunately - so I decided to work from a 6am wake up as a rough guide as he had obviously been awake for a while when I got him at 6:15am.

He went down for nap 1 at 9:25am but woke after 50mins crying - so we definitely hit OT this morning. As he only had 8hr45/9 hours sleep last night, i'm not surprised! ... I managed to resettle him though and will hopefully get full nap out of him.

If he sleeps until 11am, I will aim for the next nap sometime around 2:30pm if he can last that long.... then if i cap that nap at 1hr, he'll get 3hrs of (grumpy!  ) A before bed at 6:30pm ... does that sound about right?

Is it just expected to hit OT with naps for a while with the extended A's, we just carry on regardless I presume?

I was saying to my hubby this morning that even though he is a grump & really hard work on the longer A times in the day, he does sleep a bit better at night... it seems to go against the grain, but keeping him slightly OT does seem to work in our favour at bedtime.. which just leaves the EWs! 

Is there anything I can do to shift the early wakings do you think? As with a 12.5 hour daytime and only about 9.5 hours sleep at night (10 on a good night) it appears they are going to be inevitable?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I would always let him sleep as long as he wants for one nap, and then we can play with the second nap so that he's not waking up too tired from it.  Ideally he'd do one big nap, and possibly a shorter second one if that's what you need to do to keep his day a reasonable length.  But the shorter one would ideally be from a shorter A time, so slightly UT.  It might take a while to figure all that out but if we're just playing with A times it's easier than factoring in the cot at least

I've found the same with J that he needs to be pushed through tiredness for a couple of days in order to get good sleep.  We've had a lot of background OT from days of short naps or short nights which he's needed a push to get through.  Then the good sleep catches up on him and we have a happy boy again.  So it might be that your LO is the same.

If you think he was a bit OT for that first nap today and that you're going to have to cap the second anyway, I'd actually stick to the same A this afternoon as you did yesterday to stop OT building up further.  If he does an UT short second nap it won't be a problem cos you can't fit in a whole nap anyway without extending his day by the sounds of it.  And yes, I'd aim for bed at 6.30.

WRT the early wake ups probably the best thing to do for now is to resign yourself to them until you can figure out what he needs, routine wise I'm afraid!  Once you've found a routine which works most of the time, you can set bedtime based on what is a reasonable amount of overnight sleep for him.  But it's very hard to figure that out when there's so mucgh else going on.  Sorry, I know that's really depressing but I've had to do it and it's easier when you're not feeling like a failure every time you're woken up early in the morning.  You will get there, but it might be slow progress, that's all

[BusterB]

WRT the early wake ups probably the best thing to do for now is to resign yourself to them until you can figure out what he needs, routine wise I'm afraid!

I don't like the early rising I won't lie but I'm more concerned that he's just not sleeping enough! As you say though, once we work out what works in the day, I can adjust things and with any luck he'll stretch his nights.

I would always let him sleep as long as he wants for one nap, and then we can play with the second nap so that he's not waking up too tired from it.  Ideally he'd do one big nap, and possibly a shorter second one if that's what you need to do to keep his day a reasonable length.  But the shorter one would ideally be from a shorter A time, so slightly UT.  It might take a while to figure all that out but if we're just playing with A times it's easier than factoring in the cot at least

OK, I guess this is something we work towards as he gets older? He was very OT by the time he went down for his 2nd nap so if I was to aim for UT, then it would bring the whole day forward quite a bit and we'd end up with an early BT..... this bit is slightly confusing to me at the moment!

If you think he was a bit OT for that first nap today and that you're going to have to cap the second anyway, I'd actually stick to the same A this afternoon as you did yesterday to stop OT building up further.  If he does an UT short second nap it won't be a problem cos you can't fit in a whole nap anyway without extending his day by the sounds of it.  And yes, I'd aim for bed at 6.30.

Well he was deffo OT not UT for his 2nd nap. We had an A of 2hr 25 - I tried for a bit shorter but he was already well OT and cried for quite a while before settling, so think when I wake him he'll be pretty tired too.... not sure how we'll manage 3 hours A to bedtime, but will do my best

Thanks again for your guidance LLJ.... feel like I have a bit of an action plan now! x

[weaver]

Super!  Thanks LLJ!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

If you think he's not going to make 3hrs then put him down a little bit earlier (or let him sleep longer) and maybe try the same A times tomorrow but after a better night (hopefully), and we'll see how it compares to today? You only need to cap that second nap if it's getting too close to bed time,  or making for a very long day. Otherwise he should be fine to have two good naps at this age I'd have thought,  as long as he's getting enough A time in the day. It's finding what a good A time for him is that's the trick

[BusterB]

If you think he's not going to make 3hrs then put him down a little bit earlier (or let him sleep longer) and maybe try the same A times tomorrow but after a better night (hopefully), and we'll see how it compares to today?

Well he did make the 3 hours A in the end - although he seemed to get a bit of 2nd wind and I was worried he wasn't going to be sleepy enough due to OT and he did wake just 50 mins after bedtime but was easy enough to resettle.

However our overall sleep total for the night was about 11 hours! He didn't wake up until 6:50am! So definitely think pushing him this way is the right way to go - so thank you for you help with the timings etc LLJ.

He woke up quite a few times in the night but every time I heard him, he was just quietly playing in the cot which was slightly odd. I did notice when I came to bed that he was in rather a restless sleep and he woke not long after, so I think I disturbed him which is quite unusual.

Also after each of his night feeds, he cried going back into the cot & needed me to sssh him back to sleep - which is also very unusual, but luckily didn't take too long! So perhaps there is something developmental going on - or this is just OT catching up from last couple of days?

Either way, I can carry on with the longer A times today as he is going to be better rested.

Thanks again for your help!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Great!  So glad he had a better night So what did his day look like in the end yesterday?  I would repeat it today and see how he does with it after a better night's sleep. If the A times are still slightly low you'll find his naps shorten today or after a couple of days of good sleep.  Otherwise you're probably on the right track.

Jack often has restless nights soon after a routine change, or when something else around him is changing so you might find they settle down,  though I often find that as they do, and sleep becomes more condensed he wakes earlier in the morning cos he's sleeping in one block, rather than over a few broken stints.  Just something to be aware of. It's probably residual OT though - at least that's what I normally put it down to if there's nothing else obvious going on!

[BusterB]

So yesterday was:

w/u @ approx 6am

A - 3hr 25
S - 1hr 40 (he woke crying halfway through, so prob more like 1hr 30 sleep)

A - 3hr 25
S - 1hr

A - 3hr
BT 6:30pm

W/u this morning - 6:50am

He fell asleep this morning during his top up BF over an hour before nap time and I had to quickly wake him up, which he was none too impressed about! 

He then gave loads of sleepy signs at just over 3hrs A but I pushed on through to about 3hr 20.... he went down totally quietly, but then proceeded to coo to himself for 15 mins, sounding a bit UT?! Bizarre! So total A was 3hr35 this morning.... so will see how the nap pans out

Will aim to follow yesterday's schedule if this nap is decent.

[weaver]

That's a great night!  Yay!

[BusterB]

I think this is a silly question, but I was just questioning this in my head & i wasn't sure what was preferable?...

BT looks like it will be 7:30pm tonight if I follow yesterday's routine and that just felt late to me for some reason (although it is within the 13 hours I suppose!) so wasn't sure if maintaining the total of 2.5hr of naps with later BT or getting him to bed a bit earlier by cutting 2nd nap at say 45m would be better for his night? or if there is no difference?

Is there a preference here or is this a total non-question?

[TB9]

You should be fine to have 2 uncapped naps as long as you arent putting him down ut for bed.  Its when he starts getting ut for bed that you will have to be worried about capping a nap

[BusterB]

Would be grateful for some feedback or encouragement on yesterday & last night.... feeling rather shattered as he hasn't slept much (and therefore neither have I!)

OK yesterday went like this:

w/u @ 6:50am

A: 3hr 35
Nap 1 - 1hr 35

A: 3hr 25
Nap 2: 55m (he cried for 10 mins before going down for this one)

A: 3hr 30 (aimed for 3) @ 7:50pm - pretty much fell asleep feeding  but woke before going into his cot at just over 3hr A. Was then wide awake, he lay quietly for 10m and then cried for 15m before falling asleep.

NW:
9pm - cried for 30 mins but resettled
12am - left him for 20 mins as he was pretty quiet, when he started crying picked up and fed to sleep (was 5hr since last feed)
3am - as above
6am - as above + he had a dirty nappy - so also changed him

He fell back asleep feeding at 6:50am and I left him until 7:30am, when I woke him so that our day doesn't get pushed too late today.

Overall sleep total is 9 hours 

Is there something I should/shouldn't be doing? Or is he just adjusting & I shouldn't be expecting too much yet?

I was too tired not to feed him at the 2 later NWs unfortunately... that is probably something I need to tackle at some point as I definitely think he uses feeding to get back to sleep. But would like to have him at the point that his routine feels more suitable so that he naturally wakes up less or is sleepier when he does wake. At the moment it doesn't feel like we are quite there!

[BusterB]

You should be fine to have 2 uncapped naps as long as you arent putting him down ut for bed.  Its when he starts getting ut for bed that you will have to be worried about capping a nap

Thanks for this Tinkerbell99 - so looking at our routine, I think I would always have to cap at least one nap to prevent UT at bedtime, as otherwise our day would be more like 14 hours!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

He actually sounds a bit OT to me  Mainly cos he's fallen asleep during feeding before naps and BT over the last couple of days and is resettling relatively quickly at night.  What do you think? Is there anything else which could be causing the nws?

[BusterB]

I think you are probably right about the OT, just quite odd that he is laying awake quietly for so long! I noticed once I wrote it down here that he is waking every 3 hours, so obviously is not able to resettle between his sleep cycles himself - is that an OT thing?

The only other thing I though it could be is perhaps his tummy as he had some formula for the first time a couple of days ago and hadn't been for a poo since... But we've had a couple today, so if it is that shouldn't be an ongoing problem.

How do I keep OT mostly at bay without UT creeping in?

Am going to have to do reduced A before bed tonight as his 2nd nap was only 30mins and he's been really upset, deffo OT today!