accepting overtired and what happens?

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

Hiya, I'm sorry you're having a hard time.  It seems to me, that you are so worried about your lo getting overtired, that you're scared to increase her a time. And because her a time is short, her naps are short, and by the end of the day she's overtired anyway.  Also - I have used a carrier a lot with dd2 - when she was small, she would happily sleep 2 hours in there, but now she's older (4.5 months) she will very rarely sleep more than 45 minutes in there. I guess she's just not as comfy in there as she used to be. What do you think?

[aarden]

Yes I think you may be right. I am worried about increasing A time as I have never been able to extend naps other than when she only had 20 mins sleep in about 7 hours.

It's hard to get my head around a baby that seems OT and OS all the time and keeping her awake. I think now I could be confusing OS and A bit OT

However she will sleep in the sling for 2 hours even if she's only been awake for 1 hour judging by the last few weeks, but perhaps that was last week!

Is the idea that you extend the A time, hopefully extend the nap and then gradually she will be well enough rested. I know she can sleep by herself when she looks well rested- but I can't get her there without the sling in perfect conditions but I guess she will get to the point where she won't sleep well in the sling with stuff going on.

Thanks

[Buttonbobs]

The idea is that by extending the nap the LO is properly tired to have a good long nap. This makes it easier to extend the nap if you have to, but usually once LO has got to a good A time for them and they are not jolting then you don't need to extend.

Even though your LO may be overall OT, this can be caused by being a little too UT for each nap and therefore not quite tired enough to sleep through to the next sleep cycle.

I do agree though, you may only be able to do this long term if you wean off the sling completely for sleep. It may have become a prop and continuing to use it when A times are too short may actually make the sleep training harder.

[aarden]

Oh so do they jolt less with the correct A time or did you mean when they get a bit older (is this 6-7months+) they jolt less?

[Buttonbobs]

It can be a bit of both really, although with age it improves more. The A time being right just helps with the LOs being in a deeper sleep so if they do stir around the 45 min mark they're more likely to settle themselves x

[Haribo2012]

^^^this I found so true when LO got older the jolts got less but also correct A times helps loads.

[zissi]

hi there,

how old is the baby now? I just want to send some words of comfort as I had been in a similar situation. when my DD hit the 4 months sleep regression her sleep went out of the window and we only ever got her to fall asleep in the sling, even for BT. when she got out of the sleep regression we sleep trained her with PU/PD and sh pat and it worked wonder. It seems that you need to do this for the sake of your back, your own sanity and babiesī sleep. if she is too young for sleep training and you need to continue to use the sling I suggest you bounce on a gym ball, thatīs what I did and its more gentle on your back. I had back problems too. Let me know how you are getting on.
fran

[aarden]

She couldn't get comfortable in the sling yesterday and I could not get any cot naps past 30 mins as had to check on my 3 yr old. Day sleep was about 2.5 hours and night sleep previous night- 9.5 hours.

I need to find a way of getting her comfortable in the sling if I am going to use it, which due to the fact I am having no luck extending naps I will probably have to do.

Last nights sleep was even shorter at around 8 hours as she woke earlier and spent more time awake just sucking in her cot. She looks terrible today.
16th-17th February
E 4am
S 4.30-6.45am
E 7.20 90ml
S 8.00-8.20 in cot had to leave to check Amelie getting more cereal
Hiccups crying
S 9.30- 10.15 sling light sleep noise disturbance
E 10.45. 170ml
S 11.55-12.20 had to leave to check Amelie
E 2,00 170ml
S 14.50- 16.50 in sling but not sure actually got any deep sleep just tried dropping off lots
E 17.15 offered 90ml only due to time of day
S 18.00-18.30 had to hold her the entire nap
E 19.15 180ml
S 20.05-20.50 I think
S 21. 30
E 12.30
S 13.00-5.40

I'm not sure it's so much of a 4 month sleep regression, just gradually getting more tired since 2ish months.

I don't know what to do now if I can't carry in sling, have more than 30-40m cot naps, and night time sleep is reducing too. Pram sleep gives similar results as cot sleep but is easier on my sciatica

[Buttonbobs]

Being completely honest honey I don't think it can just be OT. An OT baby will eventually get completely shattered and just crash out. You're not really seeing that. 20 min naps can be an indicator of discomfort, and hiccups could be a reflux symptom. I know you have discounted this but perhaps it is worth getting her checked out as she won't sleep properly if she is uncomfortable. I think you need to rule this out first.

How many days in a row have you tried to extend daytime naps in the cot while trying for a good A time for her age? If less than three to five honestly I don't think this is enough to form a view that itMs never going to work. It is so hard but you are trying to teach her a new way of sleeping entirely, the sling is all she has known to this point so it will take some time to get change. Can you start at a weekend when you'll have some help with your older LO so you can focus solely on her sleep? Perhaps get some extra help for a couple of days so you can focus on it uninterrupted for up to five days?

I have no idea how possible this is, just a thought.

And get those A times more in line with the average - I know it's scary when you think she's so OT but things can't really get much worse for little sleep, so perhaps worth a shot?

[aarden]

Yes I've been waiting for help with my other child, but this is proving difficult. I hope to have some help soon.

The doctor couldn't see anything wrong with her.

Are you saying that some people find that it takes a week just to extend a nap. I was thinking that it either worked or didn't. I only extended a nap in the pm when she only had 20m in the morning. All I can see now is reduced night sleep.

I have been worrying about getting to the point where she stops sleeping at night, and in a previous post asked if I can't extend a nap then is it worth doing as if she then wakes in the night or EW then I'd only get the extra 40ish minutes out of her. It seems if she drops off by herself, she sleeps longer but if I assist her she doesn't, that's why I had hoped to find an APOP method to get lots of sleep in her.

Does this make any sense?

[aarden]

Also I'm having trouble understanding that if I extend a nap after say she's had little sleep, then at the next appropriate A time, she would have slept so we would be back to a short nap again.

Sorry for all the questions, are we saying also that I should have a go at naps and leave what seems like an EW for now?

If I'm going to have a go at the cot, I don't think I could wait to do PU/PD as I tried this with my first who was considerably lighter and I know it won't be possible. My husband doesn't understand any of this and thinks I should not worry about her sleep and if she doesn't sleep then just leave her to cry so it's definite I will be doing this by myself.

[Buttonbobs]

The routine is not fixed by times sweetie, so if you do manage to extend the nap, the A time clock starts ticking when she wakes up - then you go from there.

I understand that you will be doing the sleep training on your own, but can DH look after your other child while you do it?

I would say pick your WU time - say 6.30am and treat any waking before that as an EW, or keep doing your resettling technique until morning. After that get her up and start with the A time for the day. Does that make sense. Have you seen the typical routines for a child of this age thread?
Sample EASY Routines from 0 - 13mths+

[aarden]

Yes I understand that the A time starts upon waking. The grandparents have said they would look after my first child for a weekend but still waiting for a slot.

I can't resettle for more than 45 mins once she has woken, I tried this for three days. That was where I was struggling with whether this would work for me. If I do an early bed at 6.30, she is awake at 3-3.30, has a feed then I can only resettle for 45 mins at some point between when she wakes at 3.30 and 6.30am. This is why I don't aim for a bed time sleep until 8pm now.

I just tried in cot again and she was asleep by 1.30  A time after fussing for the previous 45 mins. I put my hands on shoulder and legs when the 30 min jolting started she just woke up and screamed. She has continued to cry all morning and the only thing that stops it is me bobbing her about.

Is this normal, am I meant to try and keep her calm until the next nap time? Push her in pram perhaps

[Buttonbobs]

Are you sure she's not uncomfortable?

[Haribo2012]

I really think it sounds like discomfort, would it be worth seeing another doctor just to see, might help hun x