About to start implementing EASY, advice needed

[torie2507]

Hi,
DS has just turned 7 months and despite trying for the past 3 months he's still not on an established routine so after reading this forum and ordering the BW book we're going to implement EASY.  However, I'm struggling with the timings

I would like to implement sleep at:

6am - awake
09:30 - nap
13:30 - nap
18:00 - bed

However, if he feeds (bf) at 6am his next feed would be due at 10:00, just half an hour into nap.  I can't bring the nap forward as I take DD to school at 9am.  Is it best to leave feeding again until he wakes, or would this make his nap too short?  Or is it best to feed him later then 6am (he still feeds in the night at the minute so not always hungry at 6am)

We started introducing solids at 6 months but he's not very interested, I think because he's so overtired all the time.

Any help to get a routine in mind before we start would be greatly appreciated.   

[Buttonbobs]

Hi and welcome to BW

Have you had a look at the example routines others have used with their 7 month olds. Have a look here:

chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months

You will see in the notes that there is a reference to A times and also a reference to dropping the CN at around this age. The average A time (from eyes open to eyes closed) is around 2hrs 45 to 3 hours so if he is waking at 6am ideally you'd be looking to put down for a nap at around 8.45/9am. I see that you have a school run in the way. Could you try and encourage WU a little later than 6am? If WU could be nearer to 6.30am then his A time will be a bit shorter and he should take a better first nap.

In answer to your question about feeding, I would probably wait until after he wakes to feed him again, particularly while you're trying to implement easy. If you are giving solids too he should start to be able to last longer than 4 hourly milk feeds at this time. If this really doesn't work you could offer a top up milk feeding an hour or so after the 6am feed to help carry him over to a later second feed.

After a 9.30 nap (if that's the earliest you can get him down) if he sleeps for a good nap (I.e. 1.5 hours or more) you should then go for another similar A time - so 3hours ish again. This would mean a second nap nearer to 2pm, but if you get a shorter nap then you'll probably need to go for less than 3 hours A time so he doesn't get OT. So f WU from nap is 10.30 - then second nap could be 2.5 hours ish later (say 12.30pm).

This is how you can see you might need a catnap some days and not others at the moment. On the shorter nap day he might wake from his nap a earlier as 2pm and that is way too early for him to get through to a reasonable BT (the A time would be 4 hours to 6pm) so you'll could go for a CN at around 4 pm for 30/45 mins and then go for bed around 6.30/7pm. On the longer nap day you might get easily from 3.30/4pm WU to 6.30/7pm BT.

Easy is not a fixed times schedule but a flexible routine based on A times appropriate for each LO. This can make it a little tricky to get into at first (especially around CN dropping stage) but we'll help out

What do you in the way of wind down before naps and BT? Does your LO sleep independently in a cot or do you rock/pat/co-sleep etc to help him?

[torie2507]

Thanks for your advice.  We're in a bit of a rut where sleeping is concerned at the minute.  He used to sleep really well at night, going down at 6pm on his own and waking only once for a feed before waking again at 6am.  However since his daytime naps have gone downhill so has his night time sleep.  He now goes down at 6pm, falling asleep when feeding, then wakes every hour, sometimes self soothing other times I sshh him or place a hand on his chest.  THe past 4 nights by 9:30pm I have taken him to bed with me as couldn't resettle.

During daytime naps he was getting to a stage where he was sleeping in his cot with just my hand on his chest, sometimes self soothing to sleep but the past 1.5 weeks he has only slept in my arms, otherwise refused.  Not quite sure where to go forward from here really.  I know we need to do something drastic as its affecting the whole family, especially my 3 year old DD.  I was thinking it may be best to install a fixed nap time routine so everyone knew where they stood but would you recommend a more flexible approach?

Starting and ending the day at 6:30 would be great but I collect my DD from school at 3 - 3:15 x3 days per week which would disturb his afternoon nap making him overtired before bedtime

His solid intake I think is quite low for his age at the minute, he refuses food a lot of the time, I think this may be because he's overtired.

Do you have any recommendations of what I should do from here?  I would find it really helpful to have a plan of where to go forward so I can stick to it instead of just being consistently inconsistent!

I really appreciate your help, thank you

[Buttonbobs]

I was thinking it may be best to install a fixed nap time routine so everyone knew where they stood but would you recommend a more flexible approach?

I would recommend a more flexible approach at this age as it allows you to adapt the napping to your LOs specific needs. Having said that I do have friends IRL who fixed naps at this early stage and it did seem to work for them. It's just not strictly the BW way if you see what I mean. I did fixed naps with E once she got to one nap and it worked really well then, I know some here did use fixed naps with their LOs younger, but the naps were fixed based on an idea of the appropriate A time for their age rather than times of the clock.

I would imagine that long afternoon will leave him more and more OT, and it does sound like that is the problem right now with those NWs etc.

If you could get a WU later in the morning, could you try aiming for this:

WU: 6:30/7
Nap: 9.30 for 45 minutes (capped) - the idea is that he needs to be UT for this nap so if you can't get WU later this may not work and you might need to go for a short CN on the move - will he nap in the car/buggy/sling on the way to school? If he would, go for the nap earlier and shift the whole plan a bit earlier accordingly
Feed on wake from nap
Solids lunch a bit early - 11.30ish
Nap: 12.30ish and aim for this nap to be a long one - at least 1.5 hours. you may need to tweak the times a bit until you get a nice long nap
Feed on wake from nap
Then try another CN in the afternoon (either APOPed or in his cot if he'll take in when you get back from school run) - perhaps around 4pm for 45 mins
Then BT6.30/7pm

What do you think?

[Buttonbobs]

You probably also want to start using a sleep training method to help him settle independently again, rather than using feeding to calm him for sleep. this will be much easier if he is not OT.

[torie2507]

I agree with what you're saying about sleep training, I'm going to PU/PD when I know what timings will be best so I can be consistent. 

I have just come back from the school run where DD's teacher has recommended dropping her off later in the morning (I didn't realise this was an option!)  which will make things easier.  So I'm thinking:

6am - awake
6:30 - feed & breakfast
9am - nap (aiming for 1.5 hours)
10:30 - feed (or when wakes up)
12:00 - solids for lunch
13:30 - nap (aiming for 1.5 hours)
feed when wakes
16:30 - solids for tea
17:45 - feed
18:00 - bed

If I could get this to work it would be great as it would fit in perfectly!  I now just need to get Ethan back into his cot...(he's currently sleeping in my arms again 

As we're in a major overtired cycle would you recommend letting him sleep on me if he needs to for a couple of days to give him / us a rest before starting PU/PD?

[torie2507]

I've been thinking about your comments, the planned routine and how to get there so viewed the PU PD down pages, it seems it works very successfully if you ' follow the rules' and stick with it (which is where I've probably gone wrong previously)  So, I've ordered a copy of the BW book which I plan to study to understand completely. 

We're due to go to Centre Parcs the weekend after next so I think it will be best to start PUPD when we return (the thought of doing PUPD whilst on hols doesn't sound like a great idea for the family!) I'm thinking the best plan then is to start the planned routine from now putting Ethan into his cot but if he doesn't self settle assist him any way possible. I'm hoping within the next week and a half he will be familiar with the new routine so his body clock at least won't fight me! Then on Tuesday, when we're back focus on PUPD, when I can be consistent with it.

Have you got any thoughts, does this sound like a good idea to you?

Thanks again for your support

[Buttonbobs]

Have you got any thoughts, does this sound like a good idea to you?

This does sound like a good plan - you need to feel ready and committed to tackle it and I think trying to change the routine a bit now and coming back from holiday and getting started sounds like a good plan.

Here to help when you're ready

[torie2507]

Yesterday felt like such a break through with a plan to go forward, until last night when I realised we have another problem on our hands.  Ethan will now not sleep unless I'm there.  Both naps yesterday, 1.5 hours each he slept in my arms as refused the cot.  He fell asleep whilst feeding at 6pm then woke up every hour, when I settled him by sshhing, until 9pm when he was going crazy so ended up co sleeping again.

I'm really worried that if I do what we said yesterday that by the time we get back from holiday he will have totally forgotten how to sleep independently so the PUPD will be a bigger battle then it could be.  However, the thought of going on holiday and potentially spending the nights picking him up and putting him down doesn't fill me with joy as its meant to be a holiday to relax and recuperate after a tough few months.

I know the book says to start and be consistent, would it be a waste of time if I started now in the hope that we may be somewhere by next weekend, but then will all the hard work be wasted as he would likely be spending some of his nap times in car or buggy. 

If I keep holding him to sleep during the day and cosleeping at night for the next week and a half do you think the habit will be truly cemented and even tougher to break?

Your suggestions and opinions greatly received as I'm really unsure what is best to do!

[Buttonbobs]

I certainly think that the longer a prop is used the harder it is to real but a couple of weeks may make only a little difference. Part of the reason you are having so much trouble I really think is the routine nothing quite right for him.

It's up to you though. It sounds like things are pretty bad already, would it be much worse to have to do a bit of sleep training while on holiday. Bear in mind things will be different anyway. I wouldn't worry too much about the car/buggy as these are not the props you are trying to break at this time.

Why not have a read of some of the threads/success stories on the pupd page so you have an idea of what might be involved.

I do think changing that routine is a priority though as he'll get more OT without getting that on track. Hugs x

[torie2507]

I just want to say thank you so much for your support.  Today was the first day with Ethan on the new routine we discussed and I can't believe it but he slept in his cot, putting himself to sleep without any crying or assistance from me both naps and he slept for an hour and a half both times. I tried to put him to bed a bit early but he still fell asleep feeding, however he hasn't woken up yet (although I don't want to tempt fate!)

Its made such a difference today, I was able to spend the time Ethan when was asleep playing with my daughter Lily and spending some much needed quality time with the two of us.

Thanks again for your support, fingers crossed for the rest of tonight and tomorrow!   

[Buttonbobs]

Fantastic news!

Hope you've had a good night. So do you plan to stick to this for now so you think or do you want to try to break the props before hols too? Xxx

[torie2507]

He slept all the night through, it was pretty much the perfect day.  however, today I've realised it was a fluke and not the norm!

The past two days have looked like this:

Fri:

6:00 - awake
8:00 - feed
08:40 - into cot (2 hrs 40 - after 1st yawn into cot)
8:50 - asleep (no props)
10:00 - awake
12:00 - feed
12:15 - lunch
12:50 - into cot (2 hrs 40 - after 1st yawn into cot)
13:08 - asleep (no props)
14:48 - awake
16:00 - feed
16:30 - tea
17:00 - start bedtime routine
17:30 - bed (fell asleep whilst feeding)
22:00 - dream feed
No night wakings

Sat
NOt sure of wake up time, first heard him chatting in cot at 5:45
6:00 - feed
7:00 - breakfast
8:05 - into cot (had been yawning since 7:40, tried to hold out, put him in cot at 2nd yawn)
8:11 - asleep (no props)
8:45 - awake (after 30 minutes - rocked back to sleep)
9:55 - awake
10:00 - feed
12:00 - lunch
12:40 - cot (2 hours 40, after first yawn)
13:00 - out of cot as screaming
13:15 - asleep in arms
13:25 - into cot asleep
13:45 - awake (after 30 minutes - rocked back to sleep)
14:15 - awake
14:20 - feed (currently!)

I'm sure I read somewhere that 30 minute sleeps mean overtired, is that right.  I can't believe its gone this way today after yesterday when I've tried to do exactly the same thing.  What are your thoughts?  Clearly I need to remove props still so sleep training is a must.

I think I'll start tonight, after reading the success stories a lot of people seemed to notice a difference after a few days which would be great.  However, a lot experienced a regression after 5 days, which would fall when we're on holiday.  Not so great!

Am I right in thinking with PUPD I put him to sleep, leave room, return if screaming, try and get to sleep by sshh pat etc, if not successful PUPD but not hold him too long, straight back into cot.  Keep going until he sleeps, if he wakes do the same.  But what do I do if it takes over 1 hour 30 minutes and its into the next faze, ie, feed time etc.  Do I just keep activity quiet until next nap time and repeat.  If this is the case do you think I should stick to putting him in his cot at 2 hours 40 or go straight for 3 hours A time and put him in his cot after this?

[torie2507]

I'm thinking the troubles with getting Ethan to sleep in his cot for naps today was due to being over tired, as tonight he went into his cot awake and sent himself to sleep without any props.  I made sure he wasn't overtired by giving him a short 15 minute CN at 4:45pm as he woke up early at 2:15pm.

He could have been overtired at nap #1 as I don't know for sure what time he woke up and I could have missed some of his sleep cues.  But I'm unsure why he was so tired at nap #2 as he'd had a long first nap, even though an hour of it was in my arms.  Thinking back I noticed his tired signs start after 2 hours A time after nap #1, he was yawning, rubbing his eyes and staring blankly but I didn't want to put him down to sleep this early so tried to hold out. 

What do you think could be causing him to be tired so quickly.  Is there anyway you can recommend to extend A time which won't result in his being so overtired?

I've decided to see how the next week goes trying to get his timings right to create good sleep.  Failing this I will start PUPD when we're back from holiday a week on Tuesday as I will have family around then to help too, which I'm sure will be welcome support whereas starting this week it would just be me at home with the kids.   

I

[Buttonbobs]

Looking at the whole thing posted all together like that I don't necessarily think he was OT as a result of being OT from the start of the day. It's entirely possible that after that good night he really needed more A time. It is a bit difficult to say though after only a couple of days. I would suggest doing he 2hr40 ,mins again tomorrow and seeing how that goes. Remember if you get a shorter nap the first time you may need to shorten the second A time so he's not OT for the second nap.

After this third day if you still see the same patterns it might be worth extending the A time again.

Unfortunately if he is in an UT/OT loop the only way out is longer A times and this can be counterintuitive when he seems so tired.

Remember at this age yawning may not just indicate tiredness, it can indicate low blood sugar (a little hungry and in need of a healthy snack) or possibly just boredom. Try and change of scene, give him something different to do and see if that helps with the A time extensions.

I think your plan sounds like a good one to try and extend the timings a little and then get started on pups after your holiday. You may still find he doesn't get properly settled until you do the pupd as he may just not be able to nap longer consistently until then, but the routine will help.

If he doesn't sleep when you start pupd he may miss a couple of naps for a day or so, but if you start at the first nap for day things should get easier by BT as he'll be tired by then. If you want specific info on pupd then you could post on that board. I am not great on the detail as we never did it. What I would say is you wouldn't go for a full A time after a short nap so it wouldn't be 2 hrs 40 mins. Perhaps 2hrs 10 or so.