5month old UT NWs...but he surely can't be UT??!?!?

[Mackjack]

Hi,
Look on most boards and you'll find a post from me about one issue or another...I'm finding baby number 2 really hard work. This particular post is about DS's long NWs and EW which I just CANNOT work out - please help!

DS is 5 months in a couple of days and BF. For weeks now, he just cannot seem to have a peaceful nights sleep. He seems to have long NWs in the second half of the night and EWs regardless of how his naps have been during the day. A few weeks ago, we transitioned to a 4hr EASY and a few days later, DS had four nights in a row where he did not feed (although he did wake in the night) - first time ever - then the fifth day all went to pot and he woke for a feed again. I was having trouble with his naps as well which was making it hard to stick to a 4hr EASY so decided to try a 3.5hr EASY with a cluster feed in the evening as it was easier to stick to. However if he's having a good nap, I let him go 4 hrs between feeds. Night before last he didn't wake for a feed (though he did wake) and last night, when he woke at the time when I would usually feed him (about 2.30am), I did PUPD instead and he went back to sleep. But from about 4am (I think) he was shuffling about until he eventually started whinging at 5.30am. I settled him by turning on his mobile (which I can do with a remote control). He has been doing these types of NWs whether I feed him in the night or not.

Also, yesterday, his A time seemed to take a jump from 2hr 15 to 2hr 30

This is his EASY for the last 3 days:

SUNDAY (out and about so naps a bit messed up)
E 6.30 (he'd been awake since at least 6am)
S 8.40 - had to wake him up at 10.30am
E 10.30
S Slept in the car about  30mins 11.30-12.
E 13.30
S Slept in sling 30 mins 15.15-15.45
S slept for about 30mins in car on way home
E 17.30
E 18.30 - he has this last BF in his bedroom before story then bed. He was very sleepy
S 19.00
NW 22.00 - bloodcurdling screams - put this down to possible teething as I managed to settle him with some meds
E 12.45 don't think he needed this but I was too tired to think straight!
NW 3am -settled with his mobile
NW 5am screaming again, settled him eventually with cuddles and meds - only slept another 45mins until 6.30

MONDAY
E 6.50
S 8.50 only slept 45 mins
E 10.20
S 11.55 slept 1hr 30 til 13.30
E 14.00
S16.00 this confused me as he'd been up 2.5hrs but seemed really happy and not tired  but he went down easily and slept 45mins
E 17.25
E 18.30 - was falling asleep on breast but made sure he went down awake
S19.10
NW 23.00 - managed to settle him in about 2minutes
NW 01.45 settled with mobile
NW he was awake from at least 5.45 (think he woke much earlier than that but it was hard to tell). DH tried resettling - no luck

TUESDAY
E 6.45
S 8.45 slept 1hr 35 til 10.20
E 10.25
S 12.45 he'd been awake 2hrs 20 and seemed fine but managed to get him down ok. I woke him at 14.20 as it had been 4hrs since his last feed
E 14.20
S 16.50 again, he'd been awake a long time - 2hrs 30 - but went down fine and slept 45mins
E 17.50
E 18.50
S 19.20 - seemed lively when I put him down and very smiley but settled quickly
NW 2.45 did PUPD for about 20mins, went back to sleep
NW 5.30 - I'd heard shuffling on and off from about 4.30 but this is when he started whinging. I put his mobile on and he went quiet (though not sure if asleep) til 6.30ish

So a few things:
 - As my title suggests, long NWs like this always suggest to me UT but I can't work out how he might be  UT
 - I'm wondering if some of you ladies are going to say I should lose the CN but then his A time til bed would be reeeeally long.
 - I'm never really sure what sort of A time to give him before bed -  a long one (i.e 2hr 15ish which is his average A time during the day) or a short one?
 - I never let him sleep more than 2hrs in one go during the day
 - Should I cap the first nap of the day? I believe long first naps can cause EWs and NWS?

Thank you!!

[Mackjack]

...also, lst night when I went into him at 2.45, he was laying there kicking about and smiling at me so I left the room initially. Only went back in and did PUPD when he started crying.

[Martini~]

Mackjack, why you are so afraid of increasing his awake times? I know there is some average for kids (for 5mo it is 2:00-2:30?), but maybe he needs less sleep during day, WDYT?

Btw, DS is currently on 2:00-2:15 awake times... Uhhhh

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

The smiley happy nw's & ew's really suggest ut...so he may be aboe to drop the catnap but perhaps needs a bit more A time and naps capped?  Some babies like that long A to bedtime, but others like a long morning A - mine likes both . I'm not so good at figuring out a routine - we kind of did set naps to fit with the older kids schedules.

[Mackjack]

Hi Martii. I'm just worried his A time is getting really long for his age and I might end up with a really OT baby!

Masyn, if I drop the CN, should I bring BT earlier even if it means his last feeds are at closer intervals? And I assume his A time before bed should probably be no longer than his max A time during the day?

Another q - lately when he has a micronap on the school runand then wakes when we get home, I've been managing to put him in his cot and hes gone back to sleep. Could this confuse him? Ie might he see this as 2naps rather than 1 broken one? Or doesnt it matter?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Lol...my post was supposed to read "may not be able to drop the catnap"!! Touch typing is not my forte! Was thinking if you shortened the other naps a wee bit to see if that helped first before ditching the catnap.

Hmmm not much you can do about a broken nap, if he goes back to sleep quickly I would count it as one nap I think.

[Mackjack]

Hi - DS is now 22 weeks and I'm still struggling with this - EWs and NWs. I'm struggling with his EASY in general now that his A time is 2.5hrs.
My main issues are:
 - Should I just give him 4 feeds now he's on 4hr EASY?
 -  I still get EW and NW regardless of how long or short his naps are
 -  He can do a full A time even if he's only had a 10minute nap - so I'm not sure if he also needs 2.5hrs before BT  - which makes his day quite long. I don't know if the A time before bed is the issue - should it be long/short??
- Is he going through the 3-2 transition? And if i dropped the CN, what would EASY be after his 2nd nap? Wouldn't his last feed have to be sooner than 4 hrs?

He is on 4 hr EASY which works fine for the first part of the day but in the evenings I feel completely lost and don't know what on earth I'm doing. I should say that although he's on 4 hr EASY, I'm still giving him 5 feeds a day - I'm not sure this is really right for him but a)I see so many posts on here advising that it's not a good idea to only give BF babies 4 feeds (even though my DD was on 4 feeds from 4 months) and b) he lost weight last week which has completely terrified me that I might not be feeding him enough (* although I'm pretty sure this is related to his silent reflux - will explain at the end of post).

So for example, he will feed at 6.30, 10.30. 3.30 and then after his cat nap, this is when I get a bit panicky and give him a feed after 3 - 3.5hrs and then another one roughly an hour later in his bedroom just before a story and then going in his cot. The one after 3/3.5hrs is an ok feed, but the next one is better. Problem is he gets very sleepy during the last feed and often nods off - I have to wake him to read him his story or worst case scenario is I can't wake him and he goes to bed asleep which is not something I want to keep doing obviously!! I did wonder if the falling asleep on the boob before bed was causing UT during the night and causing the NWs but I don't know.. If I gave him a feed at the 4hr mark instead of these 2 close together feeds, it would be right in the middle of his A time and then we'd still have time to kill before BT - isn't it best to feed them as close to BT as poss?

Here are my past 3 days EASY:

SUNDAY

E 7.30
S 9.50 Usually has 2.5 hr A time but seemed tired so put to bed a little earlier. Had to wake him at 11.30
E 11.30
S 14.00 slept til 15.15
E 15.35
S 20 mins in car 17.40-18.00
E 18.30
E 19.40 in bedroom
S 20.15
NW 2.30 woke briefly then went back to sleep
NW 3.30 cried a bit but when I was trying to settle he was just smiling at me - left the room but he eventually started crying again so DH finally settled him at 5am. Roused at 5.45 but didn't make a noise - went back to sleep til 6.50. Woke happy.

MONDAY
E 6.50
S Only 20 minutes on the school run - about 8.40-9am
E 10.50 nodded off while feeding
S 13.00 - had been awake ages. Slept til 14.25
E 14.35 fed early as he was v whingy and i wasn't sure if he was hungry
S 17.15 feel I should cap this nap but don't really have a clue - so I woke him at 17.50
E 18.00
E 19.15 managed to keep him awake during this feed.
BT 20.00 - 20 mins later he started whinging so I had to settle him. Asleep by 20.30
NW  awake from about 4.30-6am. Whinged a couple of  times but didn't need to go into him. Went back to sleep. Had to wake him at 7

TUESDAY
E 7.00
S only 10 mins on school run about 9-9.10
E 10.55 - fell asleep feeding til about 11.20
S 13.30 - 14.15 Tried to put him down after a slightly shorter A time of 2hr 10 as thought the lack of naps would've made him tired but he only slept 45mins
E 14.55
S 16.45 woke him at 17.15
E 18.05
E 19.15
BT 19.50 made an effort to make his A time before bed 2.5 hrs to see if that would help with NWs but he fell asleep at the end of the feed and I couldn't wake him so he went down asleep
NW 3.50 went in to him and he was smiling at me so I put his mobile on and left the room. He went to sleep pretty quickly. Woke for the day at 6.15

* re the weight loss - he's had episodes the past few weeks of crying in pain  and then the next day doing lots of runny poos. I didn't link this to his reflux as didn't think the poo could be related to reflux - in fact I had been reducing his Ranitidine as I thought it was getting better. Got him weighed and one week he'd put nothing on and the next week he'd lost an ounce (still on the 75th percentile). Went to DR who said it could be his reflux flaring up which could upset his stomach causing the poos and making it difficult for him to absorb his food. So have increased the Ranitidine and fingers' crossed, so far these episodes have stopped so I'm hoping his weight will increase again.

Thank you for reading if you got this far!

[Martini~]

Your nights look great MJ as no night feeds:). He seems UT to me: smiley baby MOTN. Maybe you should try to eliminate catnap? Your routine would look like:
7:30 WU
Nap1: 10:30-12:00
E 12:00
Nap2: 15:00-16:39
E 16:30
E 19:30
BT 19:30.
You can do topup feeds before naps (20-30min before?).

[Mackjack]

Thanks Martii. Yes, no NFs - I sometimes doubt myself on this and am often on the verge of feeding him when he has a NW but when he goes back to sleep and sleeps for a good while afterwards, I assume that it wasn't hunger that woke him.

So you think I should push his A time to 3 hours and feed him at bigger intervals than 4 hours? It's quite hard to control his A times when we have the school run so do you think maybe I should just try to extend the last A time before bed to 3 hours?

[Martini~]

Hmm, increasing his awake time should not mean increasing his day to more than 13h as you will get short night (less than 11h) and ot baby.

So what I would keep in mind planning his day is:
- keep it to 13h max
- if last A is too short you will see:) he won't settle for night sleep
- try to reduce length of day sleep in general; you may go to 2 naps as I wrote previously (2x 1,5h) or you may try catnap as a first nap, than nice restorative nap (1,5-2h) and another catnap; all depends on your DS awake times and if he can do 3:00 each A;
- If you decide on 2naps I would offer him top up feed 30min before the nap as in other case breaks between feeds may go to 4,5h and he may wake early from the nap or what's even worse, take back lost calories at night...

HTH

[Mackjack]

Will top-up feeds before naps turn him into a snacker, do you think? I'm also a bit worried that if I feed him fairly close to nap time, he will just fall asleep on the boob?

[Mackjack]

Sorry, when I said do you think I should extend his last A time to 3 hours, I meant by dropping the CN - not having a CN then 3 hr A time after that. Hope that makes sense!

[Martini~]

Yes, dropping the catnap is the right direction:). If you feel your lo is ready for 3h A, you may try. However be prepare for making a 15min catnap if second nap will be short or your awake time will be lower than 2:45-3:00 as too long A before BT (like 3h+) may really ot him. If he will be refusing catnap you may also try than earlier bed time in that case. Looking at your logs, usually second nap ends at 14-15, and it should end somewhere about at least 16:30 so you still have reasonable A time till BT.

Regarding feeds, there is always such a risk but I think it happens rarely that they become snackers. Mine is taking a full feed at 7 and only top up at 9/9:30 if he is interested at all. The same after the next feed.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Will top-up feeds before naps turn him into a snacker, do you think? I'm also a bit worried that if I feed him fairly close to nap time, he will just fall asleep on the boob?

We did top up feeds for a long time and it never resulted in snacking or falling asleep (maybe 2 times she did but I would rouse her before nap time to put her sleep sack on anyways!).

[Mackjack]

Thanks so much for the advice ladies but it looks like I'm not even going to be able to attempt what you suggest. He woke at 5.30am this morning - I got him up and fed him at 5.50. He then fell asleep for 15mins on the school run from 8.30-8.45 and won't go back to sleep again now we're home. I've got to feed him in a minute so he's going to fall asleep feeding and then fall asleep again for about 10 minutes on the school run when I pick DD up. Just like he did yesterday. Which was a mess.

I am so fed up of feeling stressed, upset and angry. I was clearly not cut out for babies because I am not handling this at all well. I just wonder what the point is  of even trying anymore - it's hard enough to try to sort out his routine on a good day when we're in and he gets to have decent naps but on a day like this.....