18 months old 3 hr NWs

[Maria14]

So looking at those few days I can see that she is in OT/UT loop
What should I do?
For example of her routine was really good and the horrible NWs disappeared there would still be a wobbly night because of teeth or cold that would throw her back into OT and quite how to deal with that i don't know.
There isn't a one night/ day fix with her.
She had just finished cutting all her 4 molars- it took 3 months!
And is cutting a cannie straight away!
Also having a language explosion and as she is being brought up bilingual and is spirited she is constantly thinking and concentrating on smth in her head. I could never get her routine right.
It's so frustrating.
And I have to go to work,sometimes I am so tired I just can't think

[jessmum46]

Wow there is a lot happening for her isn't there?

So when catching up with OT, once on one nap I found the best way was to keep nap at roughly the same time, maybe 15 mins earlier, but make use of EBT.  Night sleep is more restorative so usually better to extend that rather than offer extra nap and risk UT NWs. 

If you find the routine never seems to settle, I would probably just set nap and BT (so at least you know what's happening when) and let her regulate her sleep.  You may need to cap her nap if she's LSN, maybe 2h in the first instance and then cut shorter 15 mins at a time if you keep getting UT NWs.  I'd probably shoot for something like 12.30 nap and 7.30pm BT, bring nap 15 mins early if v tired or EW, BT can be up to 30 mins early if she needs it. 

What do you think?

[Maria14]

We were doing set BT mainly to avoid EWs.
So that should work ok,i started doubting it because she started having tantrums so clearly OT before bed when this happens and started offering EBT last few days with no results,so happy to go to back to 7.30 BT( funny that but after a good tantrum at BT she sleeps better not that it doesn't bring my blood pressure up!)..
The problem is the nap!
I do think she takes it early in the day- often at 11 am as she is tired after NWs, so its a vicious circle and u completely agree that it needs to come at 12.30. Currently most days she crashes out without even eating lunch!
She is very difficult to keep going til 12.30 unless she has had a good night.
I will be working on it...
Thank you for your support, I couldn't have thought sleep gets worse as they grow, crazy.
Every one else's baby seems to be sleeping just fine.
Makes me feel very low at the moment, I know that it's fixable unlike other things but this chronic tiredness just makes everything miserable

[Maria14]

I did think she was doing ok with long pm A time as she seemingly doesn't mind but the recent onset if tantrums ( provoked by slightest thing like me trying to undress her for bath) shows that she does get OT!
On nursery days she generally then has an OK night- because the nap is set at 12.30
Problem is that even when she is up for 3-4 hrs in the night she never sleeps past 8am!
So it's very difficult to keep her going til 12.30.
She gets bored at home and outside she falls asleep in the buggy!
No win..
The other day she was sending herself to snooze in buggy I rushed home to get her into bed as she never sleeps more than 30 min when out- she got so cross that I took her out of the buggy and threw a tantrum on the floor by the front door. I laugh and cry really...

[jessmum46]

Hugs, sleep deprivation is awful.

Tantrums are a normal part of growing up, although they do tend to happen more when LO is tired.  I know it can be hard getting to a 12.30 nap after a bad night but from 8am that's only 4.5h A time which for an 18 month old shouldn't be too tough.  Just get lots of toys out, get into the garden, water play etc etc, anything to keep her occupied.  This will pass.....

[Maria14]

It's more when she wakes up at 5:30 am...
Like this morning.she had a good night but only slept for 10 hrs.
She very rarely sleeps 11 hrs at night,mostly its 10-10.5 which makes her day almost 14 hrs long if I stick to fixed BT.
Or do I need to put her to bed 30 min earlier on these long days?
Or is it ok to have 14 hr day if say she has a nap if 2 hrs?..

[jessmum46]

Ah ok, I see.

My LO would have always been OT on a 10-10.5h night, in fact that would be a sign she was OT.  I guess if your LO sleeps through that length, has a 2h nap and is happy throughout A time, then yes a long day could be ok.  But I get the impression from your posts that's not the case?  I would always set times with the aim that nights would be longer than that, as although she rarely does longer than 10-10.5h, that could be that's she OT rather than not being capable of a longer night.

When doing set times, you stick to set time (-15 mins for nap if EW/really tired and -30 mins for BT) in all but the most exceptional circumstances eg LO ill or had a very disturbed night.  If you change things more than that, it isn't really 'set'.

[Maria14]

Hi Katherine,
Thank you for all your help.
As long as I can remember DD never slept long at night- of course it can be routine related, she has never slept 12 hrs as a small baby it was more like 11 hrs and now even less as I say, I don't think she is capable...even when things were going ok with her routine.
Of course it could all be related to short am A time and we need to work on this, she has always had short A time in morning in all nap transitions etc, so EWs could be a result of that.
I will work on set times. Exactly what is the purpose of these set times?.,

[jessmum46]

Set times can help a LO regulate their body clock and get used to sleeping at a certain time, so settling becomes easier.  They can also help LOs who have got into a bad pattern of EBT/EW to push out the day.  For me, set naps mean I know what's going on and can plan my day around nap times instead of constantly guessing when LO might be awake.  I guess my reason for suggesting it is that when the routine never seems to be right, you might as well make one thing predictable instead of none you know?  But it's your call

[Maria14]

So set naps and BT have been working fairly well.
The trouble is DD is still stuck in OT cycle,last couple of weeks she had 3-4 hr long NW on at least half the nights.
She mostly naps for 1-1.5 hrs even after long NW.
I just don't know what to do,nothing is working.
Why can't she go back to sleep or even have a longer nap when she is clearly so overtired.
How do I help her? APOP doesn't work with her so I can't give her a longer nap to help her recover.
This is crazy,why is this happening?
The only thing that's not fixed is her WU time.
Do I need to wake her up at a set time?
The latest she ever sleeps til is 8.30 am even if that makes a total night sleep of 8-9 hrs.

[jessmum46]

What time is nap and BT set?

[Maria14]

Nap 12.30 and BT 7.30.
We start bath at around 6.45-7.00 and she is in bed at 7.10 asleep around 7.30-7.40,settles quietly on her own.
I was just wondering how in the UK we get to see a sleep consultant?does anyone know? I am sure I ve heard 'sleep clinic' from HV in the past. Are they nhs based?
GP says he didnt think anything was wrong as she is thriving and wakenings are not every single night but that he was happy to seek second opinion. So we are going back to see him. Trouble is even if he refers us to paediatrician it will take forever, not sure there are any other ways. I don't think we need sleep training advice rather to exclude medical cause. I ve cold across an article online about someone with a similar problem and it turned out to be restless legs syndrome.
I mean DD stopped napping properly at 2 weeks of age and only did 20 min naps til she was 5 months or so as she was constantly OT and I couldn't fix that.
I think this is exactly the same now but seems to be unheard of really so want to ensure nothing medical is going on.
We are so tired. People don't believe the extent of the wakenings and say to just leave her to it and go sleep in the other room with door shut but I can't just leave her to it.this is not normal,she is not up to play!plus I can hear her moan,how am I supposed to ignore that as a mother?
Out lives are just falling apart.

[jessmum46]

Excluding medical issues is definitely a good idea. In the mean time I would probably move her set BT earlier if she is missing out on a lot of sleep. I'd be tempted to go for 6.30 pm but you may need to move gradually earlier in 15 minute steps over a few days to help her adjust.

Hugs for you are you getting support for yourself? Any 'you' time? Just brainstorming here but when you hear her at night is she all-out crying for you, or is it tossing/turning/moaning? Are you sure she is definitely awake? Sorry don't mean to be patronising at all but there are some very noisy restless sleepers out there and actually if she doesn't really need you, the advice to shut the door and get yourself some sleep is not at all bad.  Do you use a monitor/video monitor? Just asking as although I know they are helpful, I also feel from personal experience that they are the most anxiety-inducing piece of equipment ever invented!  Sometimes not knowing what's going on is helpful you know?

Looking just at the day times, she settles well for nap and BT doesn't she? What is her mood like in general? Does she act like she isn't sleeping enough?

[Maria14]

She seems to be coping generally ok.
Mornings can be grumpy afternoons are generally ok.
I definitely see the difference though between when she is well rested and not.

When she wakes she first starts fussing,that can go on up to an hour,she licks the pillow ( her way of soothing) and tries to send herself back to sleep.
This then escalates into moaning and eventually crying but not desperate yelling or anything.
If I come to check on her she then gets upset if I leave,if I go to bed with her it doesn't speed up her going back to sleep in any way

I need to try early bed time,she never sleeps longer with EBT but I have nothing to lose I guess so will try again.
Not getting me time really, no family in the area.

Wrt the monitor- I do like to know what's going on there actually and if I know she is asleep it helps me relax into sleep too.

This is much worse than newborn stage, I never could have imagined it would be like this

[Maria14]

I find that if I try to cuddle her she doesn't want that in the night.
No need to milk or food either!
If I could come up with a way to help her go to sleep I would do anything at this stage.