21 week old boy - I am gradually losing it... am I too obsessed over naps?

[JWoww]

Having read so many threads here and everywhere on the internet, I decided to post this one myself since my 21 week old seems to be one of a kind (cute like an angel but when it is time to nap, the little devil in him pops out).
So please get ready to sympathize...
I have a 21 week old boy. Since the day he was born, he was never a good sleeper during the day. He needed to be rocked, bounced, jiggled around, carried running around and even spinned around to fall asleep (of course there is another way - booby attack!) for the first 2.5 months, my mother and father did most of that and since they were gone, I had to carry on. Mind you my mother never knew any other way of getting a baby to sleep so she used the only way she knew on my child. I, on the other hand, did not read any Bab books before the baby was born (too busy reading the pregnancy books - big mistake). So I won't blame my mother for the pain I have right now. My son was 8.32kg on the day of his 3 month check up with the HV so you can imagine how heavy he is now (he is EBF). My arms, shoulders, back, wrists and knees just can't take anymore.sometimes I wake up in the morning can't move my thumb. Oh that reminds me to mention, he has been sleeping on my knees and one arm for all naps - hence the nerve issue with my thumb.
And on top of all, he only sleeps between 30 - 45 mins a time. When he wakes up if crying, the whole rocking business starts again.
To be honest, I really didn't mind rocking  him to sleep, as long as he would go to sleep. The pain I have is: First, I have to run around for him to stop fighting to go to sleep. That is exhausting. Second, sometimes after all the effort, he still doesn't. And that breaks my heart. I feel bad for myself, feel bad for him since he looks clearly tired. Last but not least, physically I can't do this anymore. With the intensity of the rocking it is not any longer possible for a 9-10kg baby.
I bought the bw book eventually and started trying pu pd at bedtime first to see if it would work on him selfsettling at bedtime. I have to say after 3 weeks (he really has been a difficult baby to train also we recently moved house) I finally see some improvement. He was able to settle himself without mommy and daddy in the room, and in his new cot, for 3 days in a row. So that's a progress. But I am slowly going insane with the nap situation. Am i too nap obsessed? I just want my baby to sleep a reasonable length of time during the day. He just looks so much happier when he was able to nap for 1.5-2hr with my help.
I will try pu/pd for naps from this weekend and will post it in the pu pd forum. But just want to ask if anyone was like me and how did it all end? Situation got better?
One day he can't self settle, both of us will have to suffer - that's what I think at the moment anyway.

[mycatmonet]

Hi hun, welcome xx
Sorry to hear you are struggling, wow, what a big boy! No wonder you are in pain, napping on you would take its toll. Can you list your routine as best you can in the EASY format? I am sure someone wiser than I will have a look and have some advice!

What helped our naps was having white noise, a darkened room, and the right amount of A time. My ds also liked to sleep on his tummy, that helped naps for him.

[jessmum46]

I'm certainly not wiser!  But saying hello and will be happy to have a peek at your routine when you post it.  Well done on the progress you've made at bedtime

[JWoww]

Thanks for both of your replies.
Below is the EASY schedule I am trying to keep but is struggling due to "uneasy" naps. It is more of EAS not EASY since I never get the Y time at all...
Wake up: 6a.m. (DS always wake up around this time going to the toilet. And once he is done, he is not going back to sleep)
E: between 6:30 and 7:00 a.m.
A: trying to keep it until 8a.m.
S: 8a.m. until between 10 and 11a.m. (This is the struggling part since he does not always go to sleep or does not sleep long enough so we almost always end up having to stay awake from 9a.m. onwards. By the time he gets to the next E time he is almost certainly overtired)
E: between 10:30 and 11a.m.
A: try to keep him awake for 2 hours starting from the last time he wakes up (as mentioned above, it could be from 9 or 10 depends on him)
S: on a good day, from 1pm to whatever I can do. very occasionally I would be able to get him to sleep for 2 x 45 mins with maybe 10-15 mins in between
E: 3p.m.
A: try to keep him awake for 2 hours until around 5pm
S: again, try to get him to sleep from 5 to 6pm
E: 6:30pm
A: 6:50-7:15pm
Bedtime routine starts: bath at 7:15pm for half an hour. then turn on the mobile, put in grobag, draw curtains, daddy holds him for 5-10 mins in the dark, leave the room. He should fall asleep by 8:30pm

Bedtime is a hit and miss. Just now DH spent an hour trying to settle him down to sleep so he didn't fall asleep until after 9pm.

I don't dream feed since he does not wake up before 6 in general and my last feed is after 6pm as well.

I guess the real struggle is to try to keep the schedule to the dot. As I described in my first post, I just can't get him to sleep on his own willingly no matter how perfectly timed the naps are. Then it starts a vicious circle, causing messing naps in the afternoon and evening, which makes him over and under tired for bedtime. I don't want to stick to the EAS schedule, but then it would mean that he might be awake for more than 3/4 hours since he didn't go to sleep or didn't sleep long enough from the last S time. If you guys get me. But if I don't stick to the schedule, the whole day gets very messy.

[jessmum46]

A few things stand out to me from what you've posted.  First his day is really long, which is likely making him pretty overtired.  We tend to aim for around a 12h day, so with a 6am start I would look at trying to have him asleep for the night by around 6.30pm latest with good naps, or even 5.30/6pm if naps don't go well.  I realise that is pretty early for many families, but the idea would be (if that early BT doesn't suit you) to get the routine stabilised and then gradually move the day out to where you want it to be.  You may also find that by getting him over some of the overtiredness that his WU time will naturally shift later.

Second, if 6am is currently his WU I would feed him right away instead of holding off for an hour or so.  That means if the first nap goes wonky you aren't trying to stretch him quite so long until the next feed is due. 

I think you're right in trying to keep him up 2h for his first A time.  That would be at the low end of average for his age but given his nights are pretty short he may only be able to manage that much at the moment.  That said, what length is his first nap typically?  If it's in the 45 mins to 1h20 range I would actually try pushing him to stay awake an extra 10 mins, and hold for a few days to see if that lengthens it.  2h is about the maximum nap length you want to be aiming for though so I would (based on a 6am WU for now) plan to have that finishing no later than 10am.

I'm a bit confused about what happens after the first nap though.  You say on a good day it could be 1pm until whenever - but he usually wakes up from the morning nap by about 9am?  That sounds like quite a long time to be awake.  Sorry if I've misunderstood though.  Do you mean if he wakes at 9am you'd try for the next nap at 11am?

If his first nap is pretty good, I would try a bit more than 2h for his next A time.  There are some rapid increases at this age and many LOs are starting to hit the 3-2 nap tranistion.  If you stick to too-short A times for too long it can actually create more problems than it solves as LO is undertired, but ends up very overtired from a build-up of short naps.  You may also find he will settle easier with PUPD if he is properly tired.

Could you keep track of what happens for a day or two and then post it here, with the times you tried to get him to nap and when he actually went to sleep? 

[JWoww]

I totally agree with you that I think his day is too long... I am aiming to sort this out as well. However, before I do this, should I gradually move the bed time earlier or do it at once?

I will post my progress for the next few days here soon. I actually just started nap training DS this morning using pu pd. The first nap he didn't sleep at all. After my attempt on the second nap, he just went off to sleep. Hooray!!! I know there is a long way to go, but if I can get him to sleep when he missed his first nap and had an early waking, it shows that there is hope...

P.S. Because his naps are all over the place, the EASY is also all over the place. And I knew that...

[jessmum46]

Not a problem the EASY being all over the place. Just record what happens and then we'll have something to work with . Well done for getting him off to sleep!

With BT, we had great success with DD when she was much younger just bringing it 15 mins earlier every few days.  I would say just shoot for the earlier time but suspect his body clock may just treat it like a nap unless you do it a bit more gradually.

[JWoww]

Thanks! I will try moving the bedtime to half 7 today and see if it will work. I suspect if I move it to 6 all the sudden it would work.
And good news, I seem to have extended DS' nap as well. Put a heavy hand on him during the active sleep transition period. His eyes opened and closed and now he has been sleeping for over an hour now!

[jessmum46]

Yay

[JWoww]

Bump! I just want to report that after two days of hard work, I have moved DS' BT from 8:30 to 7:20. So tomorrow hopefully it will be moved to 7. And tomorrow I will be posting my 2 day schedule.

[mycatmonet]

Wow, nice work!

[jessmum46]

Good job!

[JWoww]

In law came to visit which is threatening to screw the schedule...  DS didn't sleep since he woke up at 1:45 pm until I tried to get him to sleep in a car ride at 5 which is late for a catnap I know but better to have 15-20 mins before BT then nothing... Feeling so crap when I am worrying about my LO not sleeping for over 3 hours while your MIL says this: Ah he is wide awake (i.e. He does not want to sleep) we have bee on such a good 4 days and really making progress today until she called and said she was on the way (there is a 2.5 hr journal). We don't even have time saying no.
Sorry for rambling. I have been recording the timing of the past 3 days so just need time to get them all posted. I will do it tonight when LO goes to sleep for the night. Just want to complain a little.

[jessmum46]

Hugs, hope the visit was better than you expected.  Having visitors always messes things up doesn't it?  Hope you could enjoy the day though and try not to let MIL comments upset you (very much easier said than done I know!).  Will look forward to seeing the routine when you get a chance x

[JWoww]

Sorry for the delay in reply. I have not been able to get access to the internet using my laptop until today. I just want to post what I did with DS for the first few days.

05:45   bowl movement and fell back to sleep arould 6)
06:30   wu (and change nappy)
06:50   E
07:10   A
08:40   put in bed for a nap
09:23   actually asleep using shush pat pu pd
09:44   wu (start babbling) being left alone to hopefully self settle
10:00   start shush/pat and pu/pd again
10:25   won't stop crying for 10+ mins so Give up and E
10:48   A
12:18   put in bed for a nap
12:22   actually asleep  using shush pat
12:47   wu
13:05   start shush pat and pu pd
13:38   fall Asleep (startle for 15 mins then fall into deep sleep)
14:29   wu and E
15:00   A (buggy ride 16:00-17:00, fell asllep for 7-10 mins around half 4 awoken by pouring rain ...)
17:15   attempt to get him to sleep for another 15-20 mins
17:30   give up and E
18:15   BT routine (bath, pj, draw curtains, music mobile, mommy holding)
   start shush pat pu pd
18:40   put into bed
18:45   started s/p and pu/pd
19:19   alseep
   
   
04:30   briefly wakebup but went back to sleep on his own
06:20   wu and change nappy
06:35   E and then A
08:05   put in bed to sleep since he starts rubbing eyes
08:15   start crying so s/p and pu/pd
09:08   give up and quiet play in the room
09:25   try again
10:08   asleep
10:39   wu and E and A
12:25   put in cot
12:45   asleep using s/p and pu/pd
13:35   wu
13:50   put in cot again after nap routine
14:00   start crying so using s/p and pu/pd
14:15   give up won't stop crying quiet play
14:35   E
15:00   A (buggy ride between 15:45 and 17:00 fall asleep between 16:05 and 16:50)
17:30   E
18:15   begin bedtime routine
18:45   put in cot and start crying immediately  so DH start pu pd process
19:55   actually asleep (I had to jump in the pu pd at 7:15 since DH just couldn't  calm him down. also LO fell asleep by my shush pat around 7:30 but awoken by DH so had to s/p a further 25 mins for him to go to sleep,  huge sigh, annoyed with DH)
   
05:10   wu
05:30   put himself back to sleep
06:30   wu and BM and change nappy
06:50   E
07:15   A
08:32   put in cot for first nap
08:40   start crying so s/p apnd pu/pd
08:58   asleep (s/p 12 mins pu/pd 6 mins)
10:25   wu
10:50   E
11:10   A
12:30   put in cot
12:47   start crying so s/p
12:55   asleep
13:40   wu
13:50   start crying so go in s/p pu/pd
14:07   give up and quiet play
14:50   E
15:20   A (had to go and get some docs done for LO's passport
17:00   got him to sleep in the car
17:30   wu
18:00   E
18:30   BT routine
19:00   put in cot
19:11   start crying so s/p
19:30   asleep

I just want to say, since then, DS has been asleep by 8pm the latest. We tried to get him to bed as early as possible. So between 7 and 8 in general. His morning wake-up time is very consistent at around 6:10 - 6:20. Most mornings he still wakes at around 5 but then just falls back to sleep by himself. I don't know what is going on and why this happens. During the day, I have experimented the awake time between 2 hours and 3 hours. I think 2.5 hours - 2.75 hours are probably the best awake time but I haven't been able to consistently get him to be asleep by then. The reason is that it sometimes takes 2 mins shush/pat, other time could be 40-50 mins. By the time he falls asleep after a long pu/pd session, he is overtired.
I always try to extend his naps by patting him all the way into his second sleep cycle. But it does not always work. Sometimes he would just skip the REM sleep at the end of the first sleep cycle and wakes up suddently. So I have told myself not to stress too much about the length of the morning,sometimes he has 3 short naps, sometimes 1 long nap and two extra short ones, other times two long ones and goes to bed earlier (very very rare). I do sleep training for the first two naps at home in his cot almost every day, and the catnap in the car or pram instead so both myself and DS can have a break from the stress.
I am still struggling with the self-settling process. DS was able to self settle to sleep for the night today. but it took him half an hour so by the time he fell asleep, it was already 8pm. For naps, after 2 weeks of shush/pat pu/pd, he never self settled once.I don't know how long it will take for him to be able to do so for naps.

I think from the schedule you can see I struggle with the below issues:
1. The 5 o'clock waking - I wonder what has caused it. He does go back to sleep by himself though in fairness but I'd rather that he does not wake up at all and it does not take him 15-20 mins to go back to sleep every morning.
2. The effectiveness of shush/pat and pu/pd. It has not been very consistent while I do shush/pat and pu/pd. Sometimes it takes 2 mins, but sometimes after 1 hour DS is still not going to sleep and cries his little heart out. Why is that?