14 Mo Short nights and EW - any tips would be great!

[Kst33]

Hi,

My LO has just turned 14 months and only doing on average a total of 10 and 1/2 ish hrs at night. He goes to bed fairly early but wakes early. We also still get night wakings and he's only slept through to 5am once in his life - a couple of days ago. So I know we've still got a fair amount of work to do to sort this. He's not a fully independent sleeper yet - it's work in progress!

He's a happy lad during the day but I get the feeling he could do with a bit more sleep - just not sure how to try it.

Can't decide whether to bring bedtime earlier or to push the day out longer to try and get a later WU.

I feel like I should bring bedtime earlier but because he naps pretty well during the day - that would make his last awake time pretty short and overall, less than a 10hr awake day. Don't know if that matters?!! I've tried to keep a log of what's happening but I can't see any pattern - maybe just a tired brain can't see the wood for the trees here

I've got 7 days working from home now so I can have a good stab at being consistent. So want to try something - just not sure what!

Any ideas or thoughts would be really appreciated. Below are the timings of the last few days.

Thanks in advance!

Karen




17th
Awake 5am. Up 6.20
Nap 11.35 - 2.30
Bed 7pm - asleep straight away
NW at 10 and 3.30 (both quick)
Awake 5.45

18th
Awake 5.45. Up 6.30.
Nap 12 - 2.05
Bed 6.25. Asleep 7.10
No NW for the first time in his life! :-)
Awake 5am

19th
Awake 5am. Up 6.20
Nap 11.30 - 2.05
Bed 6.15. Asleep 6.40
NW - at least one.
Awake 5am

20th
Awake 5am. Up 6.20
Nap 11.35 - 1.45
Bed 6.15. Asleep straight away
NW - one at 7.30, 1pm, 3 I think.
Awake 5am. But did go back to sleep until 6. (with some APOP)

21st
Awake 6am. Up 6.10
Nap 11.45 - 2pm
Bed 6.10. Asleep 6.55.
NW: one at 8.30 (quick).
Awake at 2.30 - didn't go back to sleep until 3.45. Seemed quite awake.
Awake 4.50. Did go back to sleep until 6am. (with APOP)
Up 6.10.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Personally I would try a bit later bedtime...but I have a low sleep needs baby who does better nights when she has less day sleep (overall she gets 13 hrs in every 24). Also working on the independent sleep will hopefully help with nw's as they then learn to get back to sleep themselves (unless it is teething or illness).

[Kst33]

Wow - maybe I don't need to worry about not enough sleep after all then!

I did try a later bedtime yesterday -partly accidentally but with your reply in the back of my head, thought I could give it a go.

So the day went:

Up at 6
Nap 11.35 - 2pm
Bed 7pm
But there were tears which is quite unusual for him and he didn't get off to sleep until 7.40.

He woke at about 9.30 or 10ish I think fairly upset and needed some resettling. I heard him a few times in the night but didn't need to go in.
But then awake at 5am and no chance of getting him back to sleep even with cheating. So 9hrs 20 sleep last night.

So my best guess is that it probably was too late for him and he's been a bit moany this morning - which again, isn't really like him.

So I'll think I'll try earlier tonight.

Not sure whether to stick to a 12hr day even if that means the afternoon awake time is pretty short.
Or stick to A times once he wakes up from the nap - even if that means that the day is longer than 12 hrs.

Ideally I'd like to get to set naps and set bedtime and take the guess work out of this which is starting to do my head in.

I guess we're kind of there with the nap. Just bedtime - and how do you know what time to stick to when you haven't ever got it right!!

Many thanks for your thoughts and reply. It did help me have the guts to try a later bedtime :-)

Maybe we'll go the other way tonight and try an early one!

Thanks again

[Martini~]

Generally agree with Heidi. But I would keep the BT as you have but shorten the nap. One and only night without NW was when you had 2h nap (not 2,5h). He is in a habit of waking at 5am and sleeping 10h at night so I would try to change his routine very slowly. Shorten the nap to 2:15 for couple of days and than to 2:00 but try to keep the same BT. WDYT?

[Kst33]

Ok - that sounds an idea.

So at the moment I aim for 11.30 nap give or take 15 mins either side. And I'm trying to stick to that whether it's a 5am or 6am wake up and a 6am or 6.30 get out of bed. So would you keep to this?

And then ideally he'd be up at 1.30 ish.

So what time would you do bed? I think he does better when bed is about 4.30 hrs after waking from the nap. (But I could be completley wrong!)

So would you stick to bed at 6.30 for now and just push that last up time a bit? Or bring bed forward?

Thanks so much for your reply and thoughts.

[Martini~]

I would stick to 11:30 or even do it earlier if any changes required as it is still 5-6h after WU. You have than only 4,5h till BT which is not a amazingly long A:). So I would try to cap earlier and earlier but strt at the same time as now as the nap is working well for you. I would try to make BT not earlier than 12,5h after WU or even 13h if you feel LO will handle. So go for 6:00 if woke at 5 but try for 7 if woke at 6am.
His tears when you put him down at 7pm yesterday might be because of UT not OT as he woke at 6 and had 2,5h nap. But! Just do BT whenever you feel it's time and LO is tired. That's what I would do:).

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Totally agree with Marti!

[Kst33]

Thanks Guys for your thoughts - much appreciated

We've had a weird couple of days.


23rd
Awake at 5am.
Up at 6am. Dozy fidgeting for the hr. I don't think any decent sleep.
Nap: 11.25 - 1.35. (2hrs 10 mins. He woke on own).
Bed 6.15. Asleep 6.35

So asleep 13hrs 35 mins after wake up.
Or 12hrs 35 mins after get up.

NW- 7.20pm and 7.45pm. Then 9.30pm (but I might have woken him when I went to check on him before bed).
Then awake 4.45am. 

So 10hrs 10 mins sleep. Not too bad in terms of NW but an earlier start than we've had for a while.


24th
Awake 4.45.
Up at 6am. Eyes shut but moving and fidgeting around every couple of mins I think. Maybe this is sleep?!!
He was in a right mess from about 10.30am - so did nap bit earlier.
Nap 11.05 - 12.55. 1hr 50. (I think I've seen posts here that this is often an OT nap length?)

Bed at 5.55 and asleep at 6.05.
So asleep 13hrs 20 mins after wake up
Or 12hrs 5 mins after get up.

Then a horrendous night!
Awake at 8.30pm and didn't really settle down properly again until 1.10am.
Awake 4.55. But went back to sleep.
Awake 6am. But dozed until 7am. I couldn't face getting up at 6am after that night.

For the long NW - If I was in the room he wasn't crying but as soon as I left he cried.
He'd lay down - fidget around, seemed to be trying to sleep. But then what felt like every few minutes would sit up and fuss. And lay down again when I told him too / or sshed.
And this went on and on and on.
I did nurofen him in case teeth but didn't do much.

Could this really have been under tired?! I went for a slightly early bed because he's been so miserable in the morning and did that slightly short nap. But maybe that was wrong. Or maybe it's teeth...

I'm wondering if I'm making it worse by not getting him up at the first WU and having that hour of doziness. It's not real sleep - but he's also not awake awake, so maybe that's screwing with the day. 5am just seems too early though to be up and about doing things!

When I'm aiming for him to be asleep 12.5 / 13 hrs after WU. Do you think I should do that from the point I get him up and start interaction? Or from the point he wakes up and doesn't really go back to proper sleep? Although that would be a pretty early bed time some days...

[Martini~]

What do you treat as his wakeup time?
I mean when I enter my son room at 7am and his eyes are closed, so I make an assumption that he was asleep until I woke him. However I slept with him in the same room couple of times and from about 5am he seems to be awake as he is moving! So I checked many times if his eyes are closed - and they were! So I made an assumption that his sleep in the morning is lighter (I guess it is normal for everybody, especially kids). Many kids even properly wake at 5-6am chat/sing a bit and go back to sleep. And this is normal....

I would definitely count his awake time from the moment he opened his eyes and start to consciously play/cry. I would also say that even with his eyes open but in darkened room in silence, it's totally different activity time than his normal activity. Frankly speaking it would also explain why he is giving you a normal, not OT nap after 5-6h of A when in the afternoon he is capable of 4-5h of A. Because he maybe still sleeping in the morning:). What do you think?

Btw, I am not quite sure that 1:50 nap would be OT. You put him down much earlier so I would think it was rather UT... When looking at second day you posted, you put him down 12h after WU and he had 2h nap. Than he woke 2h after BT and it was difficult to settle down. MOTN waking may be both UT and OT.

I would say that with a 2-2,5h nap in the middle of the day, you should count 13h days.

Heidi, what do you think?

[Kst33]

I was basing wake up to be when I switched on the lights / started talking to him. I guess I started doubting that as things didn't seem to be getting any better. 

So the mornings are when we're still working on independent sleep using GW.
(I had a ssshhh pat prop for sleep and used to take him into bed with me in the morning - both of which I've been working on for the past month or so)

So he'll wake crying at 5am - I wait until it escalates into an I need you one. And then he's hard to settle. Normally in the night if he crys properly - I just tell him to lay down / or pat the bed and he does and goes straight back to sleep.

But in the mornings - we haven't yet got there yet and I have to be in there with him. Depending on how he is - either just there or resting hand on him. But you're absolutely right - if I wasn't in there and he was just shifting around - I'd never know and just assume he was sleeping! I guess I was just worried that I might have the day wrong and that was making it harder for him to learn to sleep in the early morning.

So I'll keep going with the GW at the 5am wake up and not start the day until 6 earliest. And then base all timings on the 'out of bed' time.
And with a decent nap - go for a 13hr day.

Sound about right?

Thanks again - really appreciate you taking the time to reply suggest things.

[Martini~]

I would say he is sleeping somewhere there as you always get a decent not OT nap even if you make it after 6,5A (counting from 5am theoretical wakeup). If he was really awake from 5am I would be very amazed that he can do 6,5hA and not be OT.

So I would count his eyes closed as him being asleep.

Fx for better days and I hope it will get better! Remember to do all the changes gradually and he will also need time to adjust.

Ps. Is he opening his eyes at 6am..? Or it's the moment when you take him out of the cot even when his eyes were closed as he was shifting/moving?

[Kst33]

If his eyes are shut…I leave him in the cot as long as possible!!

So I get him up either because he's been sleepy and there's been a definite change and he's woken up properly - i.e. pulled dummy out / started chatting and coo'ing. If that's before 6am then I ignore unless it turns into full on cry. If it's after 6am - then I leave the room - let him chat away for a while and go back in and get him up when he's either getting fussy or I'm just ready to start the day.

Or if he's not really been sleeping much and it's been a bit of a battle - then it's when I've had enough to be honest. Ideally I try and get to 6.30am. But I'm not at my best in the early morning…so sometimes can only last until 6am.

I've like I've got a plan now that I'm going to stick to for the next week - which always help me feel better about it all!!

So thanks for helping me get there 

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I'm not at my best in the morning either - too bad the baby didn't get that memo! Tbh I'd rather have nw than ew!

I agree with a longer nap that a longer day is in order - we do 12 hr days only if the nap is super short (like today, 50 min at daycare, had a 12.5 hr day due to being out and about early). Have you ever thought of trying wake to sleep for the morning wake? Is it at a consistent time? DD3 seems to stir when DH leaves for work (between 6-6:30) but now will finally chat herself back to sleep without needing me.