Is it normal for shush/pat and PU/PD to lead to mad amounts of crying?

[newkidontheblock]

My DD is nearly 4mo. Although she doesn't nap well or for long, she doesn't cry much either even when it is clear that she is exhausted. Since I started pat/shushing, she cries before each nap! After a while DH and I got the message and stopped shushing. Problem solved ---ish.

Only now the same thing is happening with PU/PD. We started yesterday (so this might be premature). We had to pick her up around 6/7 times with each nap. The fussing got less and less and then she nodded off holding my hand. Today was another story. Today she screamed. Screamed when I picked her up, screamed when I put her down. It was so heartbreaking! I had to leave the room and cry for a minute before going back in. I did this for an hour and it just didn't stop. Finally I put her to the breast because I just couldn't handle seeing her so worked up. I was worried she would vomit!

Is this normal? I know that I am not leaving her to cry it out and I am there but why is there any crying at all?!?!?!??!

For naps, I do the 4s with a song. For the past 2 days, it seems like she wants to be put down much sooner. When I try to sit quietly with her, she pushes away and holds her body straight up not lying on me. I put her down at this point cause it seems to be what she wants. She lies there happily babbling and playing but not sleeping. So after 20 mins I go in to help her and that's when the fussing starts. Should I just keep going on? I feel almost like I am breaking her trust.

[jessmum46]

What is her routine/what are you aiming for?  Often excessive crying happens when LO is either overtired or undertired.  Babbling and playing but not sleeping would definitely suggest to me that may be the case....

I would not intervene unless she is crying for you, even if she is lying there for 20/30/40 mins without sleeping.  You certainly can't use PUPD if she isn't crying and I would only really use Shh pat if she is worked up in order to calm her.  Just out of interest why have you switched to PUPD? 

Prior to this how did she go to sleep?  If she is used to being fed/rocked etc then she will cry in protest that you are changing things.  She's saying "mum, this isn't how we do it, I'm tired, why aren't you rocking me etc?" - the fact you are there with her is great, you can reassure her as she learns to go to sleep on her own, but there will definitely be crying.  That's a normal part of sleep training. 

Just something to watch out for - if you are using PUPd to break a prop you don't want her to be falling asleep holding your hand as that will just replace one prop with another.  Ideally you should be hands off when she falls asleep if you can x

[newkidontheblock]

Hi Katherine. Thanks for replying.
We just tweaked our routine. After checking out our daily records, I realised that Eris had already transitioned to 3.5 ish without me noticing- ie our EASY had become AEAS since she wasn't hungry when she first woke up. New routine - 7/30 WU. Naps at 9 (PD by 8.30 to give room to self settle) and between 12.30 & 1 (PD 12.30) and a catnap at 4.30/5. BT is 7, DF at 10.30. 

We don't feed or rock to sleep. We darken the room, swaddle, sing radiohead's no surprises, stand still in a corner occasionally patting (she won't let us sit. It is the wierdest thing. Another blow back of pat shush :p). If she protests, we take a few steps in front and then come back to the corner - we don't walk around. Then when she's all drowsy, we put her down and she usually drifts off. If she is putdown asleep - falling asleep on shoulder or falling asleep during a feed, she wakes up in 10 minutes super angry When she can't fall asleep on her own or resettle herself when she inevitable wakes up between sleep cycles (after being left for a long time) we would pick her up to resettle her, then place her back in crib and HTTJ. In between a nap, heavy hand and covering her eyes is also needed. Resettling her between a nap is very iffy. Sometimes it works and I will get an hour more and sometimes she will be up 5 minutes later. I do sometimes feed to sleep when she has skipped multiple naps. I do it so that she will get at least a catnap and be okay for bedtime. She has been sleeping through the night with no NWs since 5weeks and I don't want to jeopardise that.

We just started PU/PD four days ago. Shush/pat, or rather Shush, agitates her. Patting is fine but it doesn't work in the crib. We thought now that she is 4mo we could try this out. Do you think we shouldn't? It worked today to extend nap 1 & 2 by an hour each with 30 mins of crying in between.

I was just concerned as it seemed almost as if she was crying herself to sleep or rather falling asleep after tiring out with the crying. I understand that I am holding her and not abandoning her but it feels pretty awful to let her cry.

So what do you think?  Any advice would be appreciated.

[jessmum46]

Eris is a beautiful name

How long are her naps lasting at the moment?  Could you post a day of what's actually happening, what time you put down, when she actually goes to sleep and how long she stays asleep for etc?

Just from what you've said (apologies if I've misunderstood), I would have thought putting her down at 8.30am when she's only woken at 7.30am would be way too early, if she fights that nap it's almost certainly because she's UT.  If you bear in mind a typical A time at 4 months is 1h45-2h, you're only giving her an hour awake time so either she will fall asleep but short nap, or she will fight the sleep.  I think allowing 30 mins to self-settle is too much really, if mine have ever taken that long once they were independent sleepers it is because they were UT. DS is 16 weeks and out within 5-10 mins if I time it well.

How are you doing your PUPD?  Are you holding until drowsy as you were doing previously?  Or is she going into the cot more awake?  It may be that she had previously been relying on you to get her to the drowsy state so she wasn't truly going to sleep independently, so now the crying is a protest because she doesn't know how to get drowsy by herself yet.  Ideally you want her to be going down into the cot fully awake and getting herself from there to asleep without you intervening, though at this age you would still use shh pat or a variation to help as part of PUPD until she can do it herself.

Crying is hard I know - (((hugs))).  But remember it is a form of communication, in fact the only form of communication she has right now.  She is trying to tell you something, either "I'm not tired yet", or "I'm really tired please help me", or "I don't know how to get to sleep".  If you can think of it in those terms it can be easier to deal with x

[newkidontheblock]

Thank you:) DH really wanted a daughter and had planned this name from the time we started dating 7 years ago:)
 So typical day: Nap1- PD 8.30 Asleep by 9. This is the nap where she most likely to sleep through for 2 hours. Otherwise 45m WU - we give it a bit - then resettle.
Nap 2: PD 12.30/40. Asleep in 5/10 mins. Again wakes up at 45mins. Resettling is quite tough but getting easier with PU/PD. (actually now we're just trying heavy hand)
Nap 3: 4.30/5. I get 30 mins here. Sometimes 45.
Then I feed, bathe, massage, top up
Bedtime - 7 (with the new 4 hr EASY it is getting pushed to 7.30 ) For BT, I burp her, swaddle, sing/talk about the day and then stand still till she is drowsy & then PD. However for the past five days, lil miss has been asking to be put down fully awake just after swaddling. She pushes me with her feet and makes annoyed sounds. And then goes to sleep all on her own! I hope it continues. Let's see.

Also, you are clearly a genius. Took your advice. Kept her up till she showed sleepy signs, which was 1.30 mins A and then put her down by 9. She was asleep in 2 mins!

Since our kiddos are so close in age, can you share your daily routine? Maybe I could try something similar? Do I need to shorten/ lengthen/ change the wind down?

For PU/PD, putting her down awake. We anyway used to do drowsy. I want her to be able to do this herself. My aim actually is to get to the point where I can comfort her with my voice and touch.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me

[jessmum46]

Ha, our routine is all out the window as DS is getting teeth, has a cold and has started rolling over so I'm not sure I'm much use!  But we need about 2h A time I think or 1h30-40 after a short nap. 

Glad she settled much easier when you kept her up a little longer.  The shorter winddown may suit her, it always did with my DD

How have things been the last couple of days?

[newkidontheblock]

I'm almost afraid I will jinx it but things have been wonderful! She is easily doing 2 hours A time. She started going to bed with minimum effort on my part - swaddle, cuddle, kiss goodnight & she's out! And today the same thing happened for naps! Also, we have been able to resettle her with just a pat on her chest or a hand & saying soothing things. I'm so happy! She's so happy! I can't believe what a change a little tweaking can do. Thank you so so much!
Wow, rolling over & teeth! Awesome! That sounds like a lot to deal with for you but what to go your DS! Eris is showing no interest in rolling yet but instead is trying to sit. Anyway, *big hug*. Thanks again!

[jessmum46]

FAntastic!