Desperate to start over with my 3.5yo and 22mo

[tahiranisa]

At the beginning of the summer, we could put my DD (22mo) to bed with a few books and a kiss. Then we would take in DS (3.5y) after he read books with dad and tell him what part of the house I was going to pick up, and he would fall asleep independently as well. They share a room.
I am not 100% sure what part fell apart where, but between a two week trip in July where we all slept together, plus the kids starting a 3day/week Montessori program everything has gone to heck in a handbasket. I am at a loss because its not even like I have a prop that helps them fall asleep that I can wean off of. From day to day I am not sure how to help them fall asleep! Sometimes, a pat or chant will work for her. For him, if I sit in the room, he is usually fine. But since she is sometimes taking upwards of 1.5 hours to sleep, then I can't make him wait for her. So then I have them both in the room awake and either one crying if I am with the other or just about anything they can think of to cry about.

ANNNND, to boot, this week he seems to be just about ready to transition out of nap. He spent between 1 and 1-1.5 hours in bed the past three days just reading books but not sleeping.

I just can't figure out where to start. I tried a failed experiment of having them sleep together in his bed so I could pat their backs at the same time but that lasted three good days

Here is their schedule:
630 - 7 WU (Even on the weekends)
1245 - 2:30 DD (22mo) Her nap time
1:00 -  2:30 DS (3.5y)  His nap time if he takes one
7 or 7:30 start books
7:30 or 8 get them in bed
8:00 or later they are both asleep
It has taken me as long as 9:12 to have them both asleep. Somedays its easy, but most days not.

Most of the trouble is with her unpredictability. Some nights she is relatively easy. We can get her to go to sleep independently. Some nights, she must be patted to sleep. Some nights, I just have to sit nearby. Tonight, she was jumping up, singing, climbing up the crib with her legs, and then she asked me to get her some water. By the time I walk out and get it, she has calmed and I don't return. She falls asleep independently. What?!?

Also, about a month ago I was out of town and my husband said both kids went to sleep easily and independently, so the problem centers on ME!

I am frustrated.
In general, he has high sleep needs and she has normal to lowish sleep needs.
So, where do I start? THoughts?

[tahiranisa]

Any advice? We had such a good winddown routine tonight and I really thought they might go nicely into their beds. Instead, my son is sitting here watching me type this and my daughter is hollering.

Help!

[Buttonbobs]

Hi honey, I'm so sorry to hear you're having a tough time.

I'm not able to answer your post in detail at the moment as I'm in my phone, but I wonder if you would like to write about your two children separately. I understand they are in the same room and may have similar sleep needs, but it is quite hard to look at both their EAS as one.

If you would rather not write separately, how about posting each of their EAS patterns for a couple of days in two separate posts on this thread.

I have some thoughts, but if you can do this, I'll try and get back to you later.

Hugs xxx

[tahiranisa]

Thanks so much for your response. I'm happy to write any way that helps someone help me!

DS Sunday (3.5y)
6:30: wu
1:30-2:15 read books in bed, didn't sleep
3:30-3:45 fell asleep on walk to zoo
7p.m. - started bedtime
8:10 -asleep

DS Monday:
6:45 wu
12:30 nap at montessori, likely 1-1.5 hours
7:30 started bedtime
8:30/45 asleep (I had to sit on his couch until he fell asleep)
1:45 am: NW, fitful, jumpy, had taken off pull-up
2:20: after trying to help him resettle for 30+min! left his room to take dd to Dh so we wouldn't disturb her. I think he settled the second I left the room.

DD (22m) Sunday:
7: wu
1:00-2:20 nap
7: started bt
8: asleep with patting from dad

DD Monday:
7: I woke her up
12:30-2:30 nap at montessori
7:30 started bt
8:30 asleep

I think his NW is a result of the nap. I think he may need a very capped or no nap. Does this often happen suddenly? He was napping fine up until this week but as I cast my mind back we have been having more nights where he crawls into our bed and a few EW I can remember. So maybe it wasn't as fast as it feels. I need to get him to fall asleep independently again. He is very clingy since starting school in August...but it's been two months.

For her, she is just so wild until she finally crashes. My husband seems to have a good grasp on patting her a little then walking away. She fusses, he returns, little pat, walks away. With me, she is clinging to my arms, screams if I leave, and never can settle because of he interest in keeping me there.

Thanks so much. I will get Tuesdays EAS up as soon as the day is done.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I think they might both be ut...if she has always been lower in sleep needs then I could see where a long nap would leave her wild at bedtime. My two did not share a room at that age so I don't have experience there but all three are very spirited and easy to wind up at bedtime. I would suggest nap capping for DD and capping or dropping for DS. Plus is it a practical solution to have your DH do kore bedtimes if it works better for him? Lol mine do that with DH too, I think most kids do! Did he do anything vastly different than you?

[Buttonbobs]

I agree with Heidi. In our house, DH does most of the bedtimes as E just settles so much better for him. He thinks it's because E thinks I'm a sofie and she can get away with playing up more. I don't know if this is the reason but I think if it works I'm not going to argue with it

I also agree that it may well be time to start reducing or removing those naps. What do you think?

[tahiranisa]

So, we tried to implement some of your ideas. Since both kids were at montessori and took long naps, we opted to do a later bedtime if the problem is UT.

DS
6:15 wu
1230-2 nap
8 start bedtime. We let him sleep on the floor because he really wanted to (like he does at school) and he promised I could go pickup.
8:20 in bed
8:45 crying for me to come in. I put him in his bed and sat in hallway where he can see me. This is my implementation of gradual withdrawal but starting outside the room.
9 asleep

DD
6:30 I woke her
1230-2:30 nap at school
8 started bt
8:20 in bed
8:50 she is still up, dad is in there, fussy
9:10 asleep

I will say he was really fussy tonight at bqseball but it might be that he doesn't like new things and this is our second ball practice. What do you all think about today's schedule: with a nap but then late BT. Is one better than the other. State law says his school has to offer him nap, so he will likely keep taking some nap there. I can talk to his teacher tomorrow about capping. How long should I cap for each of them?

[Buttonbobs]

Hi there, what temperament are each of your LOs? What kind of wind down do you do before BT?

I'd try capping at 1.5 hours initially for your DD. Your DS could probably take a shorter nap than that. Did you manage to speak to school about capping the nap there?

[tahiranisa]

I did talk to the school and they were rather annoying about the whole thing. They said he couldn't go back to his classroom because the 4 and 5 year olds are doing big-kid work there. But he could stay in the quiet room and read quietly. I was frustrated with that answer and asked to have a teacher meeting next week. Maybe the sleeping room is fine but I am paying for a very good school and expect that they should accommodate when they can or at the very least be open to creative solutions. They confirmed that he is in the sleeping room at 1 and picked up at 2:30 or just before. So he is sleeping 1 to 1.5 hours. I am pretty sure they will not be willing to wake her.

Tonight, we had a dinner party at a friends so didn't start BT until 9!! But it was easy to get them down. Maybe 20-30 minutes. THey slept in the same bed for wind down. I helped them by sitting nearby for 20 minutes then moved to the hallway for 5 minutes. Maybe i should try a double-edged approach where i also acquiesce to a later bedtime.
Normally, post dinner around 6:30, we do a group shower (we have a huge shower) then the kids jump on my bed for a while. This is my husbands invention and i don't think it serves to calm them down before bed. I have complained about it before but he thinks i am just complaining. It is something I have gently talked about over the last two weeks as a reminder to the kids (and DH) that we need to be doing calm activities before bed. WE then read for thirty minutes. Lately, I have been then rocking them together for two songs. I find it helps ease us into their beds.


He is touchy to the EXTREME. He is so sensitive to everything and can easily be sent into a tailspin if things aren't in the order he likes. (He often bursts into tears if i laugh and he doesn't understand why.) She is spirited with some textbook. She is an easier kid by far as far as predictability but she has got some attitude!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

If school won't shorten the naps I think a later bedtime might be a good option for now. My DH winds the kids up before bed too, you would think with three spirited girls he might clue in that it is not the best time for that!

[Buttonbobs]

We had a time with DD when she couldn't cope with a capped nap, so we kept it, but BT did get later and later. I would personally prefer a shorter wind down and less fight with slightly more playtime before heading up to bed than a long fight to BT with sleep actually happening around the same time. It sounds like you have found a good time for them.

It is frustrating about nursery not really helping with the nap capping, but with DS you might find it enough to have some nap days (at nursery) and some no nap days (when at home).

It may be a bit of trial and error for a while. Here to hold your hand.

[tahiranisa]

We have moved DS to a later BT and it seems to be mostly working. BT have been easier and I can sit in the hallway versus right next to him. Once I have established the new routine I will work on GW to get out of the hallway. But, baby steps, right? Also, with him having a later BT it means we can put them down separately. I think that helps. Yesterday I had DH do DD and I took care of DS. That worked pretty well.

In an interesting turn, today at our pediatricians office, it turns out he's lost another pound. This is an ongoing battle for him mostly because he eats nearly nothing. He has a lot of anxiety at mealtimes and eats an extremely restricted diet. She recommended a play therapist to help with the food but also to see if we could get him to  be generally less anxious. It was nice to hear that my belief that he is more anxious than the average tot was valid. I'm hoping setting up a meeting with a play therapist will help me with not only the eating but hopefully his sleep/SA as we'll.