Nap Refusal - Any advice for today if poss

[Hayleys]

Hi Vicki

So I tried the car again this morning but again she wasn't receptive. She is asleep on the sofa now at 12:20 though. I really don't know how long to give her - yikes!! Going to try 15 mins, not sure what would you have done? Before no nap days a 30 min nap wasn't helping her even if it was early with a short night.

She will hopefully wake ok at 12:35. But what BT should I try, 7?

[Hayleys]

Hi Vicki!

Last night actually went a lot better. I went for the 7 pm bedtime and she was asleep at 7:50 pm. This morning she woke at 6:55. So at least she had an 11 hr night.

I'm going to try a no nap day today and bedtime for 6? It would be great if her nights could lengthen some more, does this just take time?

I can see that her teeth are still cutting the gums and really troubling her (such a bad combination 1-0 and 3 molars cutting). Thankfully she has accepted meds this morning but doesn't always.

Anyway, if she continues to not get in the car then I will just have to roll with it and try the sofa for any naps. Once her teeth are all through, I will have to try different approaches and perhaps hold firmer boundaries but that's a whole new post in another place on this website! We'll get there!

xx

[Truly Blessed]

Morning Hayley, I'm sorry I didn't get on yesterday, busy busy day.

How long did you give her for that sofa nap  What was she like when she woke  TBH I'd take sofa naps over car naps every time, if she'll take them, cheaper on fuel and it's cold out there  Very happy she had a longer night. It's impossible to say why though isn't it, this transition is a PITA! 

Just try and get a feel for the day, it might be handy to write things down, to remember nap time/lengths and BT so you can look back and see what you have done that worked to help you in future.

The molars are the worst, lots of love, cuddles and meds 

I hope today's a good one Hun.x.

[rachsk8]

Hi Hayley, Just thought I'd jump on and say that your DD sounds so much like my DS - he started freaking out about the car and I too wondered if he associated it with me wanting him to go to sleep. I would make sure you try your best to mix it up so you go other places in the car, not only going in the car at nap time. My DS (now 3yrs old) still has freak outs about the car sometimes, I think it's pretty normal... Just frustrating as heck!!!! He hardly ever sleeps in the car now, I think they sometimes hate being restricted in movement as well. If he is tired it does make it worse though.

My son has never slept anywhere but his bed or the car. Or stroller as a baby. So if your DD will do a sofa nap, I'd totally embrace it too!

Good luck. This transition can totally be the pits!!

[Hayleys]

Hi Vicki

Thank you!!  I feel that in some ways I’m beginning to find my feet a little bit, that doesn’t mean that I feel I know what I’m doing, in fact the opposite, but perhaps I’m just getting a bit more used to having to judge each day as it comes.  I’m going to keep a record of every day as you suggested.  I was only thinking at the weekend that just 2 weeks ago she was falling asleep on my husband at 4 pm after an early 30 minute cat nap in the morning and now generally she can’t fall asleep at night with a 30 minute cat nap so that just goes to show how much things can so quickly change. 
She had an 11hr 10 min sleep on Friday night and was visibly much more herself in mood and temperament.  She wasn’t even showing any signs of tiredness really except perhaps first thing in the morning.  I actually felt like my little girl was back, she was being happy and cheery!  She had woken at 7 am and we went for a no nap day.  Went really well and I had planned to shoot for a 6 pm bedtime.  However things got delayed and by the time we had finished her routine of reading her stories it was more like 6:45 pm bedtime.  It was great that she didn’t have a melt down and then fall asleep like she did on her first no nap day on Tuesday, but she didn’t fall asleep until 7:25!! 

She then woke in the night and I was with her for about an hour but some of that time she was in a light sleep so not sure how much sleep she actually did get.  I think the night wake was actually due to OT from a day which had been too long and she also woke at 6:10 am.  She therefore did not pull a long enough night to be able to handle a no nap day yesterday.  Here has been here EASY for the last few days as it may be easier to understand if I write it down like this:

11hr 10 min sleep (no night wake ups)
DAY 1
WU 7 am
BT 6:45 (asleep by 7:25 pm)
Night wake around 12- 1am

DAY 2
WU 6:10
S: 2:30 – 2:45 (fell asleep on me on the sofa)
BT 7:30(asleep at 8:20)
No night wakes

DAY 3
WU 7:05 am
(my sister has her today and is taking her out so hoping she doesn’t fall asleep in the car as I’d like her to have a no nap day, she is going to take her out locally, so fingers crossed)!

So I’m just wondering if you have any ideas on how long I should try to make her day on no nap days?  At most she is only having an 11 hour nights, is it possible that this will lengthen in time?  The sofa naps seem to be working well, she is really hard to wake though!!!  Have to have cake at the ready!!  Also as I can’t get her out in the car for naps now, I have to wait until she flakes out on the sofa.  I’m finding that depending on what time of day that happens then I decide on what the nap length should be.  So 15 mins has been working well if it is after lunch, but a 20 min nap at 3pm the other day really interfered with BT.  So also I’m wondering, what is the least amount of sleep you have known anyone to give for a nap? Is 5-10 mins enough in some cases to just get through the next few hours of the day? xx

Rachsk8, thanks so much too for your post!!  Sorry to hear you too had such a difficult time with the 1-0 transition too.  It has been so hard when she has been refusing to get in the car, especially when I feel I have needed to get out for my own sanity.  I’ve never seen her so defiant to be honest. Just wondering how did you approach it?  We had to go to her cousin’s birthday party yesterday and she did get in the car fine, but also my husband was with her.  She has always done things for both him and my sister very easily, but for me it can be another story.  Not always, but when she does I do think it is her either feeling in a safer place to test the boundaries more with me or trying to communicate something.  I do think her just turning 2.5 is playing a part and perhaps I will have to be firmer with the boundaries at some point, but I really want to handle things sensitively, as I can see she is struggling right now with teeth and tiredness.  She did really want to go to the party and was very excited so she certainly wasn’t associating the journey with going to sleep. Did you find it just got better in time, perhaps when tiredness was not so prominent?  I’m sure it’s not a coincidence that on our first no nap day we had this.  I’m thinking of perhaps in time to try a little step which she can climb on to so she feels she is climbing into the car which makes her feel more independent.  I did actually something like try this the other day, but she was not in the mood to even consider it. Usually approaches like this work really well with her so I’m just hoping that given time I can try again when she is in a better frame of mind and not so tired.  Although you mention that you still have some problems sometimes now, so perhaps this may also still be around for us once we are through this rocky patch – yikees!! I have always felt that we go from one hurdle to another but just hoping that this specific one doesn't follow us - ha ha!! xx

[Truly Blessed]

So I’m just wondering if you have any ideas on how long I should try to make her day on no nap days? 

11 hours for us Hun, but there's no guarantee she will pull a super long night until she's ready to go no nap every day

I’m finding that depending on what time of day that happens then I decide on what the nap length should be.  So 15 mins has been working well if it is after lunch, but a 20 min nap at 3pm the other day really interfered with BT.

I would maybe be wary of drawing conclusions from what happened on one day Hun, although I know that sounds contradictory when I have previously said just see what works. The point I'm trying to make is that OT could have been the reason for it taking her so long to go to sleep that night YK  and of course the length of the previous night can make a big difference, it's just so hard with such inconsistency. It was the lack of routine that really dragged me down.

So also I’m wondering, what is the least amount of sleep you have known anyone to give for a nap? Is 5-10 mins enough in some cases to just get through the next few hours of the day? xx

I have know parents who have given a LO a 5 min nap, we never went any shorter than 20 unless he fell asleep in the car when not planned. As a rule of thumb, the earlier the nap the longer you should be able to give.

You're coping really well Hun. Lots of ((HUGS))

x.

[Hayleys]

Hi Vicki

Thank you – that’s a really good point about taking each day as it comes as OT has surely been building and is likely to affect her ability to fall asleep at night.  This is how the last few days have gone:  This is from Monday (following on from my previous post) and is after having a nap day:

Day 1
WU: 7:05 am
BT : 7:20 pm
Night Wake was back to sleep very quickly, but I can’t remember what time it was.

Day 2
WU 6:45 am
BT 7:10 pm

Day 3
WU 5:40 am (was still very tired and was trying to get back to sleep but she couldn’t.  She then started to have a meltdown before announcing she could not sleep anymore and we went downstairs at about 6:45).
BT 6:35 pm

Day 4
WU: 6:40 am
S: 11:30 – 11:50
The first two days she did really well during the day, but yesterday was such an awful day with her.  She was tired and grumpy.  I tried to see if she would have a nap in the afternoon but she wouldn’t.  Instead at 4 pm she was crying and screaming because she was so tired.  In the end she then became very hyper and we got through dinner and bath time without too many problems.  At 6:35 she was laying on the sofa as I was getting her pjamas on and I could see she was about to fall asleep so I cuddled her and carried her up to bed.  I fully expected to have bad night or certainly an early wake so the 12 hr sleep was a complete shock but a welcomed surprise!  She has never slept for 12 hrs, not even as a baby!

So I’m finding that she is generally taking less time to fall asleep at night but her days are probably too long.  I know you mentioned that you kept them to 11 hrs to get a long night.  I’ll see how she does tonight after the 20 min sleep which she has had today.  So just wondering if there is anything glaringly obvious to you with how I could possibly improve things, although generally it hasn't been that bad really, yesterday was awful in terms of her mood though?  I think if I was at home with her today then it could have been hard to get her to take a nap.  My sister has taken her out in the car though so that’s how she has fallen asleep today.  I’m hoping that she will still continue to be receptive to sofa naps with me at home but we’ll see.  It may be that she starts to not start taking naps with me and will only on the days my sister has her which is Mondays and Thursdays.  So frustrating that she won’t let me take her out in the car when I can see how tired she is!!  Worried this will lead to more meldowns like yesterday!

xx

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Honey, whoop whoop for that 12 hour night. No, there is nothing obvious staring me in the face. During the 1-0 I can honestly say my saving grace was to accept that it was a 'one day at a time' scenario, to be open minded and most of all to accept you can only try offering naps and EBT etc but you can't MAKE a LO sleep, I found this hard as I am a real stresser when sleep is disrupted, but now that Sam is 5 I accept that it always passes and puts itself right, when a LO has been an independent sleeper. I think I said before that this was the worst transition for us. Sam dropped the nap completely for 2 weeks (nap refusal) and then went back to it! Then we were where you are now with some NN days and finally I decided to just stop crying and push on through, all in all probably 3 months or so in total, but it felt like longer!!!

You're doing great. I wish I could give you a solid plan, but there really isn't one. I guess with watching her day by day you can decide if she can make it through a NN day depending on her mood and the night before. Keep the nap length relevant to the time of the nap, OR just say to hell with it and go NN altogether, and see what happens when keeping her day at 11 max.

((HUGS))

x.

[rachsk8]

Rachsk8, thanks so much too for your post!!  Sorry to hear you too had such a difficult time with the 1-0 transition too.  It has been so hard when she has been refusing to get in the car, especially when I feel I have needed to get out for my own sanity.  I’ve never seen her so defiant to be honest. Just wondering how did you approach it?  We had to go to her cousin’s birthday party yesterday and she did get in the car fine, but also my husband was with her.  She has always done things for both him and my sister very easily, but for me it can be another story.  Not always, but when she does I do think it is her either feeling in a safer place to test the boundaries more with me or trying to communicate something.  I do think her just turning 2.5 is playing a part and perhaps I will have to be firmer with the boundaries at some point, but I really want to handle things sensitively, as I can see she is struggling right now with teeth and tiredness.  She did really want to go to the party and was very excited so she certainly wasn’t associating the journey with going to sleep. Did you find it just got better in time, perhaps when tiredness was not so prominent?  I’m sure it’s not a coincidence that on our first no nap day we had this.  I’m thinking of perhaps in time to try a little step which she can climb on to so she feels she is climbing into the car which makes her feel more independent.  I did actually something like try this the other day, but she was not in the mood to even consider it. Usually approaches like this work really well with her so I’m just hoping that given time I can try again when she is in a better frame of mind and not so tired.  Although you mention that you still have some problems sometimes now, so perhaps this may also still be around for us once we are through this rocky patch – yikees!! I have always felt that we go from one hurdle to another but just hoping that this specific one doesn't follow us - ha ha!! xx

Hugs Hayleys.... yep, we still do have times of car seat struggles - I'm hoping it will pass soon too as it's wearing me down too!!! I try to be sensitive too, allowing him extra time to "let me know when you're ready" to get into the car seat - but try not to make it a choice either. I do empathise with him that he doesnt want to get in his seat, and I'm sorry he's upset, but it's time to get in and go. Then sit and wait for the approaching meltdown to pass. And it does. :-)  As I said, I try to make sure we do something fun most of the time when we go out, so he doesn't think he just goes in the car to go to sleep. But he only sleeps in the car once in a blue moon now, so I'm not sure there is that association on our part?

Yay, great sign that she did a 12hr night - we turned a corner when despite a horrible mood, DS would actually not have NW's all night long from OT but began to STTN!  Hopefully this is a turning point for you too.

[Hayleys]

Hi!

Thanks ladies!

Unfortunately, we seem to have gone on a downward spiral since that 12 hr night. Ugh!! This is what happened after then:

WU 6:45
S 11:10-11:30
BT 7:30 (asleep at 8:20 pm)

Night wake 1-3 pm. Not sure if this could have been teething as she was very upset and it took her a long time to get back to sleep but also she may have been unable to get back to sleep due to under tiredness perhaps?

After a broken 8 hr sleep she was absolutely shattered!
WU 6:10
S 11-11:25 (slept in the car)
BT 6:45 (asleep at 7:00 pm)

Night wake 7:50, back to sleep very quickly but for a few hours she was in a very light fidgety sleep! She did wake up with a cold too.

WU 5:20 am
S 11-11:20 (in the car)
BT 7:30 (asleep by 7:50)
WU 5:40

My sister had her for the day following that and she had a 20 min sleep in the car between 11:10 -11:30. Not sure if this nap is what has initially thrown us of course but otherwise it would have been her 4th no nap day. I've not known how to deal with these EW's we've been getting. Think I have been making bedtime too late though?

So a lot has gone on in the last few days with the cold (not really bad and usually sleeps well and teething). I just don't know how to get out of this rut now? Was thinking of doing a no nap day with a 6:30 bedtime tonight. I don't want to make bedtime too early as she may only pull a 11 hr night, but think that maybe she needs to not have a nap today unless she does sleep on the sofa. If you see this in time today, what do you think?

[Hayleys]

I meant to write that I think she needs a no nap today unless she really can't handle it and falls asleep on the sofa. She is very tired though but think that nap isn't helping perhaps? Also to get to the 12 hr night we had to have a few no nap days and she really struggled the day prior to the 12 hr night. The other thought which is going through my mind is the 12 hr night may have been due to her coming down with the cold as opposed to progress. She does often pull a longer night than usual before she gets a cold. Hard to know though. xx

[Truly Blessed]

Morning Hun,

I am debating 2 ways forward for you now  . Offer a 20 minute nap at perhaps 11.30/12.00 either in the car or on the sofa and if she doesn't take it that's it for the day. Set BT at a 12 hour day if she takes the nap and an 11 hour day if she doesn't. The alternative being go no nap now, with an 11 hour day. I just know what it is like after this long when there is no consistency whatsoever. I think at this point her body clock is probably 'shot' and it could be the time to allow it to 'set' to something consistent. How do you feel about this  would you agree  It won't be easy, but neither is the 'status quo'  Recently I am erring more toward a total nap drop TBH, or at least giving it a good shot.

x.

[Hayleys]

Hi Vicki

Thank you for your response!  Yesterday didn’t go to plan really as she ended up falling asleep on the sofa whilst I was out of the room at 3:40.  I let her sleep for 10 minutes, thinking that it probably won’t interfere with bedtime too much but it did.

Here was her EASY:
WU 5:40
S 3:40 – 3:50 pm
BT 7 pm (asleep at 8:40)
WU 6:20 am
S (waiting for my sister to get back to me but will be somewhere between 11:20 and 12 pm)

So at bedtime she looked really tired and was trying so hard to get to sleep.  However, she kept saying to me that she could not sleep and in the end she got out of the bed (which she has not done since the very start of having her ‘big bed’) and was wanting to go downstairs.  I managed to get her back in the bed by making it interesting with a toy which she could play with until she was ready to sleep and she did eventually settle herself on the bed and fall asleep.  However, as you can see she only had a 9hr 40 min night. I’ve just spoken to my sister who is with her today and she said that at 11 am she was so tired and trying to sleep on the carpet, so I told her to take her out in the car for a 20 min nap today.

I personally feel that the way forward right now is to perhaps totally drop the nap as you mentioned.  Looking back after she had the 12 hr night last week, I wish I had just not given her a nap the following day as we have been having problems ever since and I wonder if she is now at the point where a nap no matter how short  is interfering with her nights. (?) The problem I have is her nights are short right now and she is not going to easily manage a no nap day until they lengthen.

Also I’m not sure that an 11 hr day is realistic for us either if she does a no nap day as there are days when this is not going to work with both myself and my husband being home on time to manage that. Yesterday with a 5:30 am wake up, that would have been a 4:30 pm bedtime and I also just don’t feel brave enough for that!  My husband and I were speaking this morning about perhaps trying to fix her bedtime at say 6 pm and completely dropping the nap when we can.  I think that if we are able to do this for a few days then perhaps her nights will increase (?)

Do people sometimes just get to the point in the process where they can just fix bedtime?  Of course the dilemma is that looking at today then she is unable to not manage a nap so we need to wait for her night to increase slightly first so she can manage that. Not really sure how we are going to get there though?  If you see this post in time, what time would you perhaps do bedtime for tonight?

Yikees – feel we have hit a new low!! xx

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

Did you get my inbox message 

Honestly all of the problems you have cited are all of the problems we were faced with and so many others, it really is so hard, and I feel for you so much . Her BT tonight will depend on if she napped today Hun, if it was what you hoped for and a short nap of less than 30 mins, I would shoot for early still if you can, maybe 6.30 in bed and see what happens. It's so difficult to know if you have overshot it with this transitiion, but I would tend to prefer to go early and then just ride it out until she can sleep, hoping to achieve and long enough night to try for NN from now on. If you do you will find it hard to keep her awake but if you can get through to the point where she gets 2 long nights in a row then it's likely things will improve from there. Once you get to dropping the nap, just get her to bed asap, I understand it's not always easy, you can only do what life will allow you to, nothing more.

Lots of ((HUGS)) hope today is better.x.