need some direction on sleep training....longish post warning

[1stimer]

Ds has not gotten any better with his nighttime sleep. He's still up every 2 hrs and sometimes hourly. I feel very certain that if we could get his nights better it would help with his days although his naps, while short, seem to work fine for him. I'm on limited time so I'll say that his EASY is in a bit of a transition since starting solids so he is nursing every 3 hrs (6 am, 9,12,3,630 for bedtime ) but napping every 2.5( 930-10, 1230-1 330-4, and bedtime at 630) still since we can't seem to get past 30 minute naps. He settles on his own to bed, actually refuses to be rocked or anything for naps and bed, just a kiss and his paci and I lay him in his crib and he's fine. So say he nurses and is in his crib by 645 awake but settles by 7, I'll try and df him at 9 but sometimes lose track of time, he will be up at 930 fussing so I'll feed him but usually end up feeding him again around 1030 for his df when I go down. After that he is up every 2 hrs like clockwork which made me think it's out of habit not hunger? But now he is up every hr so I'll give him his paci and he will go back down and then an hr later he's up and I'll nurse. An hr after that he'll wake up and take a paci to settle and this is our routine all night. I'm so tired...this has been going on for almost 7 months now soni figure it's time to straighten it out. I keep hoping he will just start sleeping longer stretches but it hasn't happened. I'm just nervous to refuse feeds I guess since he was 6 weeks early I don't want to take any nutrition away. How long should he be going for? I was thinking I should maybe try and start with getting to 3 hrs? I'm n ot sure really where to begin. I told dh I would need his help bc when I pick ds up at night he automatically starts rooting and if I don't give up the boob he gets mad so I though it might be best for dh to do.it if we need to in order to resettle??
I.mentioned he's on solids so foe breakfast lunch and dinner he's getting a little something....I feel like he's getting plenty of calories during the day. I honestly couldn't tell you what how his night feeds are bc I'm literally asleep when we do them. I fall asleep sitting up on the bed with my legs in Indian position with him testing in the middle. I want to say they last pretty much ad long ad a full feed during the day though...

[katie80]

(((Hugs))), that sounds exhausting. Do you think the paci has become a prop? Is he close to being able to replug it on his own? I'm asking because if you use it to stretch out the feeds, but it is a prop in itself, he may still not stretch out and continue to wake.

Now that he's on solids, do you think he can make it longer between feeds during the day? Tracy's thinking was that LOs will take bigger feeds when they're farther apart, thus taking in more calories. While not all EBF babies can make it 4hr between feeds before solids are started, most can by the time they are eating some solids. I'd at least start pushing to 3.5hr between feeds.

He may be able to stay awake for a bit longer before naps too. I'm not sure when A times catch up, developmentally, but you may have more luck extending the naps with a longer A time. Have you tried w2s at all for the naps or do you think the paci could be an issue?

As for settling in the MOTN, yes it will probably be easier if your DH does it, but it is possible for it to be you too. I've ended up getting rid of NFs with all three of mine, because my DH just ends up bringing them to me anyway. At his age, I'd say he can likely go at least 4hr between feeds at night, but if you want to start at 3, that's ok.

Let us know how it goes... good luck!

[1stimer]

He can somewhat replug his paci if he can find it but he still hasn't been able to search for it effectively yet. I don't think its a prop however bc he will spit it out right when he falls into that deep sleep and doesn't want it after nursing to sleep at night. Ive tried to replug it when I go in to check on him if its out but he refuses so I don't think he needs it to stay asleep, just to fall asleep for naps and to resettle. Yesterday he was very sleepy and woke up from his third nap at 230, so I decided I wasn't going to put him down until bedtime and just do bedtime at 6 if he absolutely could not make it until 630 (his normal bedtime). We made it to about 610 and he was out like a light after his normal routine. I just left him alone to see what would happen at and 830 he was up. I put his paci back in and he went back down until 930, so I went and nursed and went to bed myself HOPING that he would have a little longer stretches but nothing was different that I can reacall. He was up again at 1130 and I gave him his paci but he didnt resettle so I nursed and he went back down and then he was up again at 145 and I resettled for maybe 30 minutes and we did the back and forth game for a while and he went down somewhere around 3 (maybe?? I have a really hard time remembering times nowadays)  when I brought him in to bed so I could lay on my side and nurse ( I know its terrible but im so dang tired  ). I put him back in his crib around 530 and then at 615 he was up and I brought him in the bed with me while dh was getting ready and he just cooed and played while I laid next to him. He eventually fell back asleep about 30 minutes later and was up at 715.
I put him down for his first nap this morning at 930 (trying to stretch it by 15 minutes) and he was very sleepy. Ive tried W2S lots of times and its only worked once.
As far as the feeding times....he will nurse when he wakes up and will usually take solids about an hr after...so say he nurses at 730 and takes solids at 830...he shouldn't nurse again until 1130 and do his lunch at 1230? Ive tried so hard to get him on a schedule but with his sleep being so wonky and WWs and developmental leaps its been so hard!!! With DD it was easier bc we had to be up and out of the house by a certain time, but since im home with the kids now I just let them sleep. Should I try getting DS on a consistent wake up time to get a better routine? Even if his night time sleep was wonky? Or should I just let him sleep? Its so tempting to let him sleep so I can get a few extra minutes but often time DD is up right when I think I might get a few extra minutes lol.

[1stimer]

So the past 2 days has been pretty similar. The day before Yesterday he ended up taking is first two naps early and he was up from his third at 2 so he stayed up until 630 again. I'm wondering drink now if he's ot. Aside from when he clusters two naps close together I've been trying to extend his a time and he has had a really hard time settling for his last nap. Usually I can just put him in his crib but the past 2 days I've had to hold him and soothe him more than usual. Nighttime sleep is still bumpy also. He does great (for him lol) at the start of the night but after he gets up at 3 or 4 it's every hour or 30 minutes  until he settles in around 630.

[1stimer]

Maybe I need a refresher on w2s....do I resettle after he's up or should I try and catch it before he's awake...when he's starting to fidget?

[1stimer]

Ok here's our exact easy from today....it's similar to all other days. Tonight I'm going to keep track of his nws.
E-730 bf 830 solids
A 7-930         
S 930-10

E 1030 bf/ 1115 bf
A 1030-1140
S 1145-  1225

E 100 solids/ 200 bf
A1225-335
S 335-420

E 430 solids
A 430-630
E/S 630 bf /bed

[katie80]

Hi hon, so sorry it's taken me so long to respond, we've not been in our regular routine this week and it's throwing me off!

He can somewhat replug his paci if he can find it but he still hasn't been able to search for it effectively yet. I don't think its a prop however bc he will spit it out right when he falls into that deep sleep and doesn't want it after nursing to sleep at night. Ive tried to replug it when I go in to check on him if its out but he refuses so I don't think he needs it to stay asleep, just to fall asleep for naps and to resettle. 

I don't know for sure, but I think if he needs it to fall asleep and resettle, there's a chance it could be a prop. If he needed it only to fall asleep, but not resettle then I would think it's not. Just food for thought. I do think it's worth practicing with him to get him to replug himself and then put a bunch in his crib and start guiding him to them at night, so he can start to do that part himself.

Should I try getting DS on a consistent wake up time to get a better routine? Even if his night time sleep was wonky? Or should I just let him sleep?

I would at least try to keep it within a 30min range. So, if he naturally wakes between 6:30 & 7, I wouldn't let him sleep much last 7:15/30, at the latest, if he's had a rough night.

Maybe I need a refresher on w2s....do I resettle after he's up or should I try and catch it before he's awake...when he's starting to fidget?

It can work a few different ways, but at this age I'd try to get to him before he fidgets and stir him a bit to cause a new sleep cycle to start. If he typically naps 30min I'd go in around 24/25min. Here's a great link on w2s:

As for the latest EASY, do you think his 30min naps could be UT? After a 2hr (short) A time, he did a 30min nap, but as the day went on they got a bit longer and after a 3hr A time (quite long after a short nap), he did a 45min nap. I'd keep pushing that first A time and working on w2s/resettling if possible. He should be getting to the age of coming out of the short naps, if there isn't a prop issue and you've got the right A time.

[1stimer]

No worries!! I know this time of year is crazy for everyone!!
Ill work on the paci thing....it does make sense that if he needs it to resettle it would be a prop. Ive been trying to get one of those animal thngs you attach to them to make them easier to find etc but they don't carry any that fit his paci in stores here...and online they are upwards of $20 so I was going to avoid an not so expensive, not so necessary item since we have so much stuff these days lol!!!But it seems like it might help so I might just bite the bullet.

His first A time is usually hard to stretch out but yesterday and today we went to 2hrs 15 minutes in between his first one and then today of his second one we almost made it 3 hrs (is that roughly where he should be??). He was a bit OT at this last nap though so it was a little harder to settle him. I thought he may be with the 2 hr time but he generally falls asleep easy, but im not really sure what UT would look like. OT...I know what that looks like though lol. This is what last night and so far today has looked like:

Last night I DF at 830 and then again at 1030
he was up at 1230, 230, 330,  430. I tried resettling each time and ended up nursing every time except for 330 and he took full feeds (for him that generally means 7-12 minutes)
He was up fpr good at 630

E 630 bf/ 800 solids
A 630-845
S 845-920

E 930 bf/ 1130 bf
A930 - 1220
S 1220

He just went down and we almost made it 3 hr in between times so we will see how this nap goes. Thanks for all the help so far. I feel like just keeping track has helped me kind of see what is going on but im hoping to get osme of these NWs under control. He may be out over night for a work thing on valentines day so im hoping by then I can maybe have it down to at least 2.

[katie80]

Completely forgot the link for w2s yesterday! (Not getting much sleep here either! ) Here's the link: How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

Can you sew (or have someone sew) a few pacis on to a little security type blanket? Then he'd only need to find the blanket and have a few pacis right there.

I actually don't know that you want to push the A times quite so much after a short nap. I'd work at getting that first one longer, closer to 2.5-3hr, if possible, and keeping the next ones closer to 2-2.5hr after a short nap.

[1stimer]

I was actually thinking about sewing them on to a few taggies blankets that we had. Today after that almost 3 hr stretch he only slept for 25 minutes and then an hr later he ended up going back down for 40 minutes...so ill work on the first a time to stretch it out and start there. That second a time I tried to keep shorter but he wouldn't go down ( I think it was OT but he fought it for so long I gave up bc I knew he would go down in a bit...) Thanks for the link....I didn't even notice it wasn't there bci was on my phone lol!!!!

[katie80]

Sounds good... keep me posted!

[1stimer]

Ok yesterday the naps weren't too bad but I think I've figured out a problem...or THE problem. I think I've become his prop..miss that possible!? Dh brought him to me and I nursed in bed...we are just both run ragged...the past few nights dd has been in our room for various reasons. But of course its always in between when ds is sleeping so our sleep is even more broken up. Anyways ds laid down and rolled over and snuggled up to nurse. We all fell asleep. The next time he woke up I just gave his paci and he rolled over and started playing with the hair at the base of my neck (we are facing each other so he pulls in really close) and fell asleep. The next time he woke up I tried to nurse but he didn't want it...he just grabbed me like before and fell right back to sleep...so this was probably a 4 or 5 hr stretch  (I couldn't see the clock during all this) I know it all started at 1 when he last nursed and then when he woke up again it was 520...so yeah a little over 4 hrs. Soni know it's not hunger. So I told dh we know what it is now...so we need to sleep train him in his crib. How do I start...do I do shh pat or pupd? He goes to sleep completely independently for naps during the day and even at night if he doesn't fall asleep while nursing.

[katie80]

If he struggles to fall asleep for naps during the day, what do you do? That's what I would do to help him fall back to sleep when he wakes at night.  If you don't want to get rid of the paci, then you'll have to teach him to find it and replug if you want him to be a truly independent sleeper. 

Before you start, you need to make a plan for how long you plan to go without feeding him.  I'd start with at least 4hr intervals.  So, if you feed him before bedtime at 6:30pm, you need to resettle every NW before 10:30 without feeding.  Even if he's awake and you're attempting to resettle when 10:30 rolls around, you need to get him back to sleep before you feed him... it can be that he wakes 10/20/30min later, but he has to go back to sleep first, otherwise he learns that if he cries hard for long enough that he will be fed, yk.  Then, carry that through the night.  It will be a few very frustrating, difficult, likely sleepless nights, but it should get better relatively quick and he'll likely start going longer stretches than 4hr which will feel so good for you.  Is your DH willing to help or do you have some help during the day, so you can know you'll get to rest a bit and hopefully nap?  My DH was not very good at sticking out the crying, so although he really tried to help with both DD and DS1, I ended up doing it alone as he would just end up bringing them to me!   But, he was willing to get up with them in the morning and my mom came over a couple times so I could get a nap during the day.

(((Hugs))), I know what it's like to feel so exhausted you don't know how you're coping.  I'm there right now!  If you're determined to do this, it will work.  I'm here to hold your hand!

[1stimer]

Hes really good about going down for naps...I guess if he is OT though and it takes a while ill just stand and pat his back and shh him...I guess like shh pat but im usually standing up with him when I do it.

So I would need to settle him if he should wake before 1030 and then once he is asleep that's when I would do his dream feed and I could go to sleep myself? And then throughout the night keep resettling until he makes it to 4 hrs, but he has to be asleep every time I feed him or just when I go to do his dream feed? Say he eats at 1030 and is up again at 230..can I feed him since its been 4 hrs or do I need to get him to resettle first?

DH should be on board but hes not good when DS cries...and hes not much of a crier but he will fight and push and buck around and DH usually has to hand him off...he tends to be much much much easier for me to resettle. I don't have anyone to help during the day but I think I can manage....ive gotten pretty much accustomed to being sleep deprived. When DS does the rare 3 hr stretch I wake up and its so hard for me to get up bc my body is like oh hey...3 hrs?! whats this?!?!?! LOL

I think ill just go ahead and start tonight...might as well!!! He last nursed at 630 so ill resettle him until 1030 and ill keep track of the rest of the night and see how it goes.

[katie80]

Oh no... so sorry I haven't replied to this! Somehow I've missed it in my unread replies. How's it going?

So I would need to settle him if he should wake before 1030 and then once he is asleep that's when I would do his dream feed and I could go to sleep myself?

Yes, or you could DF at 10 if he's sleeping and go to sleep as early as possible.

And then throughout the night keep resettling until he makes it to 4 hrs, but he has to be asleep every time I feed him or just when I go to do his dream feed? Say he eats at 1030 and is up again at 230..can I feed him since its been 4 hrs or do I need to get him to resettle first?

No, he does not need to be asleep every time you feed. If you DF at 10:30 and he wakes again at 2:30 or later, feed him. If he wakes before 2:30, that's when you resettle and keep resettling even if you pass 2:30. If he wakes at 2:15, then it's your call whether that's close enough to 2:30 or not, but I probably wouldn't fudge by more than 15-20min.

Good luck!!