How to reduce the NW/ NF for 8m/old?

[Mariellamom]

Hi there, I've been getting lots of good help with our 3/2 transition on different posts here.
But I have a question about NW.
My DD is 9 months old and since 4 months old she had a DF and two NF pretty much every night (she is BF). Several times we were successful with prolonging her feeds to 4 hours and in that case she had only one night feed. But it happened only 2-3 times and she kept coming back to the same schedule. I've been trying to reduce the amount of time she spends on a breast during the middle feed in the night, but she kept waking up sooner and sooner when I started doing that.  (Ive been trying for two weeks) Last three days she has been teething and I did not continue with the reducing the time. Two months ago I tried Gentle Removal Plan. But I cant quite understand the idea. I dont let her sleep on the breast and remove the nipple early. After that she kind of moves around and falls asleep without the nipple. I couldn't understand what should be the next step in this plan and if I should do it with all night feeds or only the middle one (to be gradual).
Our 3/2 transition is still very bad. But EBT helped to reduce OT NW before DF. Sometimes she is up for DF though. Then she is up at around 3 hour mark, rarely at 3,5 after the feed. We tried to extend for several nights in a row and she kept waking every 10 min until I fed her at 4 hours mark. Then she sleeps for 3-3,5 hrs and wakes up again hungry. Some mornings she would have a break after the last night feed for 4 hours, but mostly after 3 hours she is hungry!
Our day feeds are messed up because of 3/2 transition and her short naps. I am trying to keep 3 hours in between her feeds. Sometimes because of solids she goes 4 hours or longer (if the nap is longer, but it hasn't happened in the last two weeks).
When I feed her more often during the day, the night still stays the same: DF, and two NF.
I would like to ask what my best strategy here? Should I keep extending NF to 4 hours? (I am worried about that one because she will be OT from no napping well during the day and then not sleeping because I extend her...)
Or should I wait when 3/2 transition will bring some success? (started at the beginning of February and did not have two days in a row with two good naps ;( )
I liked the Gentle Removal Plan, but really cant get what my next step is....
Also was thinking about wake to sleep method, but she is inconsistent especially with different BT because of irregular naps.
Plus now she is teething obviously....
Sorry, if my post is all over the place. You can guess with short naps and bed nights for 8 months mom is not rested to write clearly

Thanks for your help!

[katie80]

So, she is pretty late to be doing the 3-2. I'm guessing that's because she's always slept short naps? Can you post an example for your EASY, please? If it's not often the same, you could post what happens for a few days.

Although, at this point I agree with you that likely the feeding has become habitual. It's possible (although probably unlikely) she needs the DF and one other feed at this point, but she certainly doesn't need all three. Does she eat solids well during the day?

As for the Gentle Removal Plan, unfortunately I can't offer any insight on that as I've never done it myself. I'm assuming you've read this link... Gentle Removal Plan Have you read Pantley's 'No-Cry Sleep Solution' as well? I'm guessing there would be more detail in the book.

WRT wake-to-sleep, it doesn't really matter if bedtime varies, it's more a case of a habitual NW/NF. Do the other NFs (or even the middle one, for that matter) typically happen around the same time, like 1-1:30 and 4:30-5? If so, that would be a viable option.

Otherwise, I've ended up having to resettle any wakings that are too early to feed at in order to extend feeds. It does take time and persistence, but it works and usually within a few nights to a week at this age. I've just been on a thread of a 10mo old that went from having multiple NWs and often only settling with a feed to sleeping a full 12hr in less than a week! Yes, there will be some lost sleep and OT, but those things are usually regained quite quickly once LO figures out what's going on.

It's totally up to you, but I think those are the three options you have. I'd probably wait until the teeth break through (assuming they're close) and then work on getting rid of at least one feed. The trouble with a slower plan like Gentle Removal is that there will be several more teeth coming in the next few months, so in order to really make progress, you need to work through that. But, that is probably most possible with that type of method as well.

[Mariellamom]

Hi Katie,
Thank you!

We've started 3/2 at 6 months. But cannot get to two solid long naps, yes. She hasn't had 3 naps in the last two weeks, only two.

Solids sometimes she eats well, sometimes not. I am kind of concerned that after half a jar of fruit she might be waking up hungry early from nap and sometimes I feed her 15-20 min before nap. Not sure how to space the feeds.

Wow, I am thinking maybe we did not give it enough time for extending her feeds at night. I mean I think we did 3-4 nights and she started waking more and of course we were thinking that better for her to wake up only twice than 4-5 times. Maybe we should give it a try for a week at least. I just want to be consistent and to know that we are doing the right thing. (I bet the mom of 10m/o LO is unbelievably happy about a 12 hour night!!! )))
It looks like several nights at night she is up at 4 hours mark after the middle night feed, yesterday it was even 4,5 hrs (first time!).
So, if I extend that middle feed to 4 hours, should I feed her fully or reduce the amount to avoid wake ups later? So, if I give it a try for a week for 4 hours, we can move to 4,5 and 5 hours hopefully? Lets say a week for every 30 min extension? (I have read that there are some issues with early waking when eliminating a feed, but not sure in which case...?)

I understand about Gentle Removal plan that it really might take a long time. Since we don't have any teeth yet, it will be a long way to go
I feel sharpness on her gums, I assume we are close ?
So, our routine yesterday was :
WU 7 00
E 8:30
S 10:30
A 11:50
E 12 :00
Solids 14:00 a little bit
E 14:40
S 15:25 up after 5 min. crying. Teething maybe? Gave meds, did stop crying in a crib. Resettling for 1 hour, no luck
E 17:30
S 18:00, but on and off until asleep at 18:45. 19:10 up, self settled, 19:55 cry, self settled, 20:10 up self settled.

DF 21:20
1:00 Feed
5:30 Feed


Monday routine                                                         
WU 6 40
E 8 00
E 9:25
S 10 00 ( 3:20 A time- 1h 20 min sleep)
A 11:20
E 12:40
S 14:35 ( 3:07 A time- 40 min sleep)
A 15:15
E 15:20
BT 18:10 (2:55 A time)
21:30 up. resettling no luck. Feed
12:45 up, sh/pat- asleep
1:35 Feed
 5:30 Feed (4 hrs!)

Saturday:
WU 7 :00
E 8:00
Solids did not it any, just water...
E 10:00 little
S 10:25 ( 3:15 A- Sleep 1h:45m)
A 12:10
E 13:15
Solids almost none
S 15:20 (3:15 A- Sleep for 50 min)
A 16:15
little finger foods
E 18:45
BT 19:10 (after 3 hrs A time)
22:00 up, 22:15 S sh/pat. 22:25 Feed
22:35 asleep. 22:40 up selfsettled.
23:20 up crying. Teeth meds. Asleep
2:00 feed
05:00 feed, asleep at 5:25
 A week ago I tried A time 3:30 and our naps were 40/35 min only....that is why I moved back to 3:15 A time.

Thanks for your help!

[katie80]

Solids sometimes she eats well, sometimes not. I am kind of concerned that after half a jar of fruit she might be waking up hungry early from nap and sometimes I feed her 15-20 min before nap.

Yes, that's ok.  I'm guessing her solid intake will likely go up if you can eliminate one of the NFs.

I mean I think we did 3-4 nights and she started waking more and of course we were thinking that better for her to wake up only twice than 4-5 times. Maybe we should give it a try for a week at least. I just want to be consistent and to know that we are doing the right thing.

Yes, I think you need to give it a good week or so before you expect to see too many results.

So, if I extend that middle feed to 4 hours, should I feed her fully or reduce the amount to avoid wake ups later? So, if I give it a try for a week for 4 hours, we can move to 4,5 and 5 hours hopefully? Lets say a week for every 30 min extension?

I think that sounds reasonable.  I'd give a full feed at the middle one, as if you're extending it, she will likely be seeking a full feed and then the hope is that as you extend it you will lose the other, early morning one, and just be left with one NF.  Does that make sense?  The other option would be to drop the DF and keep the two NFs for now.  I always find it easier to resettle during the part of the night that I'm most awake, so that may be a reason to work on the DF.  Another is that there comes a time around 9/10mo when the DF seems to interrupt night sleep more than help it, so it may be worth it to try and drop that one.  Ultimately though, it's up to you... work on the one you are committed to changing!   I kept the DF with all three of mine until 9/10mo.

EASY looks decent... it seems like her morning nap is a longer one, but the afternoon is short.  My guess is the afternoon nap is a bit UT and that's why she's not sleeping through.  Your ticker says she's just 8mo, but the title of the thread says 9... which is it?

[Mariellamom]

ha ha...that is too funny. She is 8 months old! I was too sleepy writing that post:)) Sorry for confusion!
Last night we had a 5 hour stretch for the first time!!!!
we didn't do anything since she is teething. But I increased her A times to 3h 30 min again  and we got 1,20 and 1, 10 nap!  But her nap finished at 5 pm, and BT at 7:30. And an early start at 5:50 this morning. I assume because of not enough A time before bed? I didn't know what to do: to wake her 40 min into nap, or to do BT at 8:30?
I like your idea about extending DF. Sounds much easier to me also.
Should I extend until 4 hrs and dreamfeed her or wait until she is up?  You are right, DF always makes her wide awake now.
I assume if I cut one NF I don't need to add it to her day feeds but to expect that solids will be enough ( if she eats enough of course )  ?
Thanks so much for your help!

[katie80]

Ok, 8mo... just wanted to make sure as there are definite differences between 7/8mo olds and 9/10mo olds. Yay for the 5hr stretch, that's great!!

But I increased her A times to 3h 30 min again  and we got 1,20 and 1, 10 nap!  But her nap finished at 5 pm, and BT at 7:30. And an early start at 5:50 this morning. I assume because of not enough A time before bed? I didn't know what to do: to wake her 40 min into nap, or to do BT at 8:30?

Yes, looks like the A to bed was a bit short. Why not BT at 8pm?

I like your idea about extending DF. Sounds much easier to me also.
Should I extend until 4 hrs and dreamfeed her or wait until she is up?  You are right, DF always makes her wide awake now.

I would wait until she wakes, but resettle all wakes before 4-5hr.

I assume if I cut one NF I don't need to add it to her day feeds but to expect that solids will be enough ( if she eats enough of course )  ?

She may naturally increase either the milk she takes in during the day or solids or both, but yes I don't think you need to worry about adding in a feed or anything.

[Mariellamom]

Thanks!
So, we started having early wake ups now. I am guessing she got used to eat around 4-5am and wakes up for that? Last three nights she is up two hours after the last feed.... Her teeth are not fully out yet but it seems she is not in pain a lot. So, I started increasing the times between the NF a bit and we have now these early 4-5 am WU. What do you think I can do? Maybe it will go away after I stretch the feeds all the way until 4-5 am?

Ok, 8mo... just wanted to make sure as there are definite differences between 7/8mo olds and 9/10mo olds. Yay for the 5hr stretch, that's great!!

 What is the difference between 8 and 9 months? Should I prepare myself? )) Could her A times be too short for her again as we get only one 1,20 nap and the second one is 40 min only. Should I aim for two longer naps or just let it be 3h30 min A time for now?

 About not doing 8 pm BT-
I was thinking 8 is too late? I would love to have BT at 8 but I read the EASY samples routines here and they are all 7, max 7:30 BT.... I thought these are the latest hours...?
In my culture (Ukrainian) it is actually not earlier than 9 pm!!! So, I always have to do lots of explanation why our BT is so early


 


 

[Mariellamom]

Ah yes, and the 5 hours stretch never repeated again 

[katie80]

^^^ Bummer!

So, we started having early wake ups now. I am guessing she got used to eat around 4-5am and wakes up for that? Last three nights she is up two hours after the last feed.... Her teeth are not fully out yet but it seems she is not in pain a lot. So, I started increasing the times between the NF a bit and we have now these early 4-5 am WU. What do you think I can do? Maybe it will go away after I stretch the feeds all the way until 4-5 am?

Hmmm... I would think it would be more due to day time routine or teeth rather than stretching the feeds.  I wouldn't think she's waking hungry, yk.  What times are you feeding her now?

What is the difference between 8 and 9 months? Should I prepare myself? )) Could her A times be too short for her again as we get only one 1,20 nap and the second one is 40 min only. Should I aim for two longer naps or just let it be 3h30 min A time for now?

Haha, not a big difference.  What I meant was that most likely a 7/8mo old is still doing two full naps and maybe not eating a whole lot of solids yet, while a 9/10mo old may start having one shorter nap and is probably eating more solids. Both of those things can factor into NWs.  What A time are you currently going for, 3h15? If you've been there for a good couple weeks and the naps aren't lengthening, then yes, it's probably time to move toward 3h30.

About not doing 8 pm BT-
I was thinking 8 is too late? I would love to have BT at 8 but I read the EASY samples routines here and they are all 7, max 7:30 BT.... I thought these are the latest hours...?
In my culture (Ukrainian) it is actually not earlier than 9 pm!!! So, I always have to do lots of explanation why our BT is so early

Well, really the great thing about BW and EASY is that you can make the routine work for you.  If you want a later BT, then work at getting two full naps and your day can stretch out to 12.5-13hr.  The samples are just that, samples.  You do the routine that works for you!

[Mariellamom]

Hmmm... I would think it would be more due to day time routine or teeth rather than stretching the feeds.  I wouldn't think she's waking hungry, yk.  What times are you feeding her now?

NF are at around 11- 11:30;  2-3 am. Keeping 4 hours stretch. Maybe teething, because our routine was messed up even more before and she was OT but never had EW. Actually she just started trying to stand holding onto something. Maybe this is the reason also... When she wakes up now, she is trying to stand in her crib.

Haha, not a big difference.  What I meant was that most likely a 7/8mo old is still doing two full naps and maybe not eating a whole lot of solids yet, while a 9/10mo old may start having one shorter nap and is probably eating more solids. Both of those things can factor into NWs.  What A time are you currently going for, 3h15? If you've been there for a good couple weeks and the naps aren't lengthening, then yes, it's probably time to move toward 3h30.

I would say her solids are not that good yet. But it seems like I can go for  3 full meals now. She is more interested. Her A times are 3:30! And with that A time we did not have two solid naps yet. Should I increase?

Well, really the great thing about BW and EASY is that you can make the routine work for you.  If you want a later BT, then work at getting two full naps and your day can stretch out to 12.5-13hr.  The samples are just that, samples.  You do the routine that works for you!

hmm, thanks for the explanation! I didn't know 13 hours was ok...
 I was actually aiming for 8 WU time and 8-8:30 BT. But she is up too early
 Oh how to get those two full naps out of her??? )  She didnt have good long naps since 6 weeks old!  I am thinking maybe she is LSN and I had to increase her A times to more than average times were....?

[katie80]

The EW could definitely be teething or developmental.

Can you write her EASY for the last few days? Maybe we can find a clue...

[Mariellamom]

Hi,
I wanted to observe her EW but it seems she doesn't do it anymore. If I feed her around 4am she sleeps longer it seems.
Our days are a bit messed up since we are moving. BUT last night she slept from 6:30 pm until 4 am without a feed!!! She woke up twice but didn't need my help falling back asleep. I actually woke her at 4 am to feed because I packed my pump. Unbelievable !!!
So,  now I am thinking what made her STTN. She napped 2,5 hrs ( again first time in months), after that she didn't want to nap and I put her to bed at 6:30 after too long A time. She even didn't get all her 4 feeds as usual!  Only 3 BF and 2 solids! 
It seems her A times can be longer now,  sometimes 4 hrs and the   second nap doesn't fit into the day unless it is a CN. Probably will have to wake her up from the first nap early. 
I am confused now and thinking how to repeat her night now?

[katie80]

Oh wow, that's great!!!

It seems her A times can be longer now,  sometimes 4 hrs and the   second nap doesn't fit into the day unless it is a CN. Probably will have to wake her up from the first nap early. 

Well, you were thinking she might be LSN, right and it was time to increase A times, so that seems to fit. Have you read through this link? From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older) Keep track of her EASY for several days and we can try to figure out the right arrangement of sleep for her to continue STTN.

[Mariellamom]

he he. I've always  tried to miss that link thinking we are far away... Thank you! 
Several days she was up at 6ish and I extended her AM nap to 4 hrs and we had  one good nap. But yesterday she had a feed at 5 am, then up at 6, 7, and then 8! She was falling back  to sleep on her own. I considered those wake times as her NW,  But 3 hrs after WU ( 8am) , she was super tired and I put her down and we got that 2,5 hrs nap...
Might be that she didn't sleep well after 6,7 am anymore and I should have started her day?  But then instead of OT nap we 've got this long nap.....?
I am just hoping this move will not mess us up a lot. I am still trying to keep AM nap normal. Since her pm doesn't fit kind of into her day, I try APOP that doesn't work every time.
Will keep track of her easy and see
Thank you for your help !

[katie80]

Sounds like maybe she was playing a little catch up. They sure can be confusing!