Author Topic: Super low sleep needs 10 month old?  (Read 4252 times)

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Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Super low sleep needs 10 month old?
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2015, 20:23:30 pm »
I've just gone back through my old posts and found this from when Jack was 10 months.  He'd just dropped to one nap really, with a first A of about 5 hours and a second A of whatever it took to get him to a 7pm BT (if this was too long I'd do a short catnap to see him through).  Here's a sample 2 nap day for you though:

WU: 5.30
A: 4hrs 30
S: 1.5 hrs capped (or let him sleep til 11.30 at the latest)
A: 3hrs 20 is the shortest A I've managed here.  This is the A time he's most likely to shorten. I've normally managed to AP by 3hrs 45
S: 20 minutes most recently.  This gave shorter / fewer nws than allowing 30 minutes here.  This usually falls at around 2.45 - 3.15ish
A: About 4 hours
S: Aim for 7 - 7.15

But like I say, most days were 1 nap days from 10 months onwards.

I've had a really long and stressful day so I'm not doing a very good job of looking at your routine I'm afraid, but I wouldn't usually count NWs as A time when looking at my day.  I don't remmeber making any signidficant changes after a 2hr NW - maybe just shortening his first A slightly - by 15/20 minutes.  I can't really remember I'm afraid  :-\  It looks like your LO maybe needs an afternoon A of around 4.5 hours after a good nap?  You might need to move your cat nap earlier, too (you could cap your long nap to achieve this).  Jack has always done almost a full A after a short nap, so I'd probably aim to still have around 3.5 hours after a CN, depending on the length. It looks like you're kind of at the point where 2 naps is too much, and one is not enough...  It's a really tricky one.  You could try something like Jack's routine at this age, but swap where you put the longest A time, depending on what your LO prefers.  Jack always needed a long morning, and a shorter second A, which is how ours came about, but you could do a short AM nap and then a long PM nap with a 4.5 hr A afterwards if that would suit your LO better?  We did something similar for a while, with an UT capped nap as early as I do AP it in the morning, and a long nap at 1-2.30 / 3ish I think.



Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Super low sleep needs 10 month old?
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2015, 21:15:42 pm »
Just thought of another thing to consider if you want to explore the lsn thing  - those awful long nws ended for us quite suddenly at about 13 months after 1) I started being really strict about nws, and only going in to him when he was really getting worked up, and even then, keeping it brief, boring and repetitive. And 2) he cut his nap to around an hour, and therefore reduced the amount of day sleep he had. We've only had one long nw since, and that was after nursery let him sleep too late in the afternoon, and I tried a normal BT, so his A to bed was too short. Just a few things to think about....



Offline athenasmom

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Re: Super low sleep needs 10 month old?
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2015, 00:09:19 am »
I wrote a really long reply and it just disappeared  :(

Anyway my thoughts are along the same line with lovelylily. I think your bub needs less day sleep and he is definitely ready for 1 nap. My DD does about 5 hours A in the am then naps for about 2.5 hours then another 5 hours A in the pm. We always did a slightly later BT around 7: 45 - 8- ish. It just suits my family better. If you want to keep the 2 naps you should cap the 1st nap to 1.5 hours then do a 20-30 min catnap in the afternoon. But since he naps for a long time I would just push that nap to the middle of the day and let him sleep up to 2.5 hours.

We had long NW's with DD for about 4 consecutive nights then she pretty much put herself on this 1 nap routine  ;D The fact that your DS is happy and wants to play really points toward UT and inapropriate routine.

We also had long NW's with DS (a long time ago, he is 8 now  ;D) and we tackled it with WI/WO. As lovelylily said, I was very strict about going in only when he was very upset and really needed me. Then I would just lay him down pat his back a couple times and repeat my sleepy phrase and leave. If he started crying then I waited in front of his door for 10 seconds then went back in and repeated the same. It was brutal at first doing this in the middle of the night for a couple hours but in afew days he got the picture. It is very important to not give in, be repetative and make it boiring for him. Keep the room pitchdark and be very brief and avoid contact or anything that could engage him. In the end we got to the point with DS where I just told him my sleepy phrase from the door and he layed down by himself  ;D
*Suzanna*





Offline Lycheewaves

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Re: Super low sleep needs 10 month old?
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2015, 22:54:33 pm »
Awesome thanks guys!! Lots of things to try here! We had another STTN last night so I think ensuring enough A time is the key. I've not tried capping his first nap but I can see while on the days he needs 2 naps (I'm finding this is now when he's done a long nw and therefore needs a shorter A time in the morning) I've not been capping his first nap and so therefore his CN comes in too late. Since having an earlier cap of when he can have his last nap he's been so much easier to put down than when I first started posting and he was having late 5pm ish catnaps. He's definitely a long first nap short catnap baby I think he needs the long A time before bed to go down else he just wants to stay up and play

Also will try the NW. I do make sure no lights go on, no toys etc but me and OH do go in quite a lot and try to get him to sleep again. I guess even this is 'fun' for him.

Thanks again guys can't tell you how great it is to know I'm not the only one with this, when everyone keeps telling me 10 months is way too early to go to 1 nap!!

I'll let you know how it goes!

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: Super low sleep needs 10 month old?
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2015, 05:57:18 am »
Glad to hear things are heading in the right direction and you're starting to suss him out  :)

I can't quote on my phone but wrt the night wakings we were the same  - we always kept things dull and routine, but used to go in as soon as he started crying. When I decided to hold back and only go in for a genuinely upset / escalating cry, and not go in for moaning or stop start crying I found myself going in much much less - sometimes only once in 20 minutes. And then when I did go in I wouldn't lie him back down or give him a cuddle or anything.  Sometimes I'd just walk halfway into his room, tell him firmly that it was sleepy time and then walk out.  It took about 2 nights I think, before he stopped crying when he woke, and then the next night he slept through.  Anyway, I mention it cos I thought I was doing WIWO all along, but it turned out I was doing too much WI I think!

Keep us up to date on how it's all going, anyway.  It may be that if you can get his A time right you won't need to change how you deal with news....



Offline Lycheewaves

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Re: Super low sleep needs 10 month old?
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2015, 00:16:10 am »
Ok we've had a couple of really bad nights and he's been having over tiredness meltdowns from being up so much in the night. We've tried one night of WI/WO but not sure if I was doing it right. I didn't go in until he got properly upset but it seemed to make it worse, I didn't even get to the door before he restarted. Then what do you do to get them to calm down? Is it words only? I ended up patting him and saying my goodnight phrases until he settled and then trying to walk out. Sometimes I made it out sometimes he was already very upset by the time I got to the door.  Eventually the crying screaming had a pause in between. So I then stood outside as there were gaps in the crying though the crying was very upset and the pauses got longer... It was so hard, it took almost 2 hours in the end, almost as long as a normal Night waking :(

My question is do you still go in when the crying is really bad even if with pauses and keep doing it till you get the settling cries or do you just hang back and wait? So painful to hear him cry like that :( weve always been with him in his NWS so he's never cried this much before, we felt so bad for him.

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Super low sleep needs 10 month old?
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2015, 10:17:15 am »
Hugs :(

What are you aiming for routine-wise?  Sorry I've kind of got lost in what you posted above, A times aren't hugely consistent and that can make it hard to see patterns.  With all those NWs he may well be OT right now, even if overall he needs a push....the fact that NWs have gotten worse could be telling though if you have been pushing the daytime routine....

Offline athenasmom

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Re: Super low sleep needs 10 month old?
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2015, 13:11:46 pm »
Hugs, so sorry it is hard  :(
So are the NW's as long as before or do you see an improvement? Does he cry at BT and naps or just during the NW? As with all sleep training, I think it is quite normal that there is a lot of crying at the beginning. You are doing something else than you have before and he is telling you that he is confused. Before he could stay up and play with you when he woke but now he has to learn to sort himself out and put himself back to sleep. It is hard to hear your LO cry but you never abandon him so he knows that you are there for him but he also learns that he is expected to sleep at night and not play. When you see that he is trying to settle but is upset then it is the right thing to stay and pat him if that helps. I have done the same with DS and DD too. When I see that they monkey around I leave because they need to understand that it is not proper to play when they are supposed to sleep and I am not going to engage in that. But when they actually try to settle and need help because of OT or being too wound up or SA or any other thing then I stay and help.  ;) My experience with DS was that in the first 15-20 min he would stand up and try to play calling out etc. but then once he got the picture that it will not happen he would stay down but would struggle to sleep and roll around. At this point I would stay and just step back instead of leaving. It was a long learning process though and it took a while but eventually he would stop waking or just would need a quick sip of water or back rub and put himself back to sleep. That is of course until we hit the 18 month sleep regression and 1 year molars ... that was probably the roughest period sleep-wise   ::)
*Suzanna*





Offline Lycheewaves

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Re: Super low sleep needs 10 month old?
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2015, 17:37:46 pm »
Thanks guys.

Routine wise we are being baby led, I've not been waking him up at a specific time in the morning, I left him sleep till when he needs. It's usually 7/8 though can be as late as 830am. Should I wake him up regularly at a specific time? Sometimes he's up till 5am so when I try wake him up at 7am he's sooo unhappy. Then if he's been up a long time in the night, he's been having a first A time as short as 2/2.5 hours because he is bone tired and then I let him nap for as long as he wants, it's usually 2 hours this one. The day is then based on when he wakes up from his first nap, if it's early enough he gets in a longer, say 1 hour second nap to help him with his OT. If it's later in the day then we end up with say a 30 min catnap or even shorter if close to bedtime.

Today for example he was up at 8, I tried to put him down again for a nap at 10 he didn't want it, so he had a nap at 11 instead, slept 2 hours till 1, he didn't want to catnap at 4 so I let him sleep for 15 mins at 5am so hopefully he's still tired for BT at 7.30pm. So today he's done 2 A times of 4 hours and by BT he'll have been up for 10hrs 15.

Since the above posts I haven't been able to try a one nap day as he's been NW every night so he's always too OT to go to 1 nap.

I do think he is getting into the pattern of habitual NW though, I think we have been making them too stimulating and getting into accidental parenting because we've both been so tired we've been picking him up, holding him to sleep, bringing him into our bed to sleep etc :(



Offline jessmum46

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Re: Super low sleep needs 10 month old?
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2015, 18:26:09 pm »
I understand wanting him to catch up on OT, but when every day is different it's really hard to advise or even decide if OT/UT is contributing to your NWs. The days he naps after just 2-2.5h A he is using his nap as an extension of night sleep - that may not be helping you right now.  If he knows he can catch up so soon after waking for the day what's the incentive for him to sleep well at night? If it were me, I would aim for consistency in the daytime routine especially whilst sleep training, and ensure that first A is a decent and consistent length ie probably minimum 3.5h. The biggest enemy of sleep training besides inconsistency in the method is inappropriate routine.  To that end I would start your day at a consistent time within a WU 'window'. Here we do not get up and out of room before 6.30am regardless of WU time, and I wake by 7am if not up already. Obviously you don't need to use those times but just to give you an idea.  Then regardless of the night do a proper A time is 3.5h or so. Stick to the same A time for a week. This will inevitably give you some OT naps but you might be able to resettle. If the nap is an hour or more I would give another full A time, if the nap was short maybe 15-30 mins less.  Cap the second nap if required to preserve your 7.30pm BT, and don't be afraid to pull BT 30-60 mins early if naps are a mess.  He needs to shift his awake time from the night to the day, and sleep from day to night if you see what I mean :).

I know this isn't easy though :( hopefully a consistent daytime and consistent approach to NWs will give you some clarity about his true sleep needs xx

Offline athenasmom

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Re: Super low sleep needs 10 month old?
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2015, 18:33:23 pm »
I agree with Katherine ... consistency is really key for you right now.  ;)
*Suzanna*