Super low sleep needs 10 month old?

[Lycheewaves]

My DS is turning 11 months next week and his sleep patterns are getting worse. He's been on EASY since he was 4 months old and we had a dream period when he was 6/7 months old of textbook naps and sleep through the nights. But as he's gotten older I think he's doing his 2-1 nap transition early but he is averaging about 12 hours of sleep in total in the day, an average of 10 - 10.5 hours of night sleep and a 1.5 hr to 1 hr 50 total of naps in the day. We've had some days where his sleep times are screwed so he only does 1 nap.

Is this normal? Does anyone else have a low sleep needs baby and if so did they also do the transition to 1 nap early? I've read about babies doing a short morning nap and then doing a long lunchtime nap but if DS hasn't been asleep at least 4 hours (now it's extending by increments, he has a MELTDOWN if I dare to put him down too early) so there's no possibility I'd get him to do a morning nap as he won't have been up for long enough.

This means we often have either a baby that refuses to sleep at his 7.30pm bedtime cos he's too energetic, so last night he slept at 930pm and woke at 6am. Or he goes down early but then wakes at 1am/2am for a cot party, which never finishes any early than 3 hours as he needs to get tired again.

These 2 things which happen either/or most days screw with his wakeup times so if he's had a cot party he falls asleep again say 5/6am and wakes at say 8/9am.

Tearing my hair out here....

[jessmum46]

Hugs, sounds like not a lot of fun

Absolutely there are LSN babies and there is no one size fits all, but I would at least consider the possibility of overtiredness or needing a routine tweak before concluding that's all the sleep he needs.  My 10mo DS can also handle 4h+ awake but tends to get rather more sleep than your DS overall.  Could you post a few recents days for us to peek at and see if we can suggest anything that might help?

[Lycheewaves]

Thanks for replying!!  I did consider overtiredness first and have been trying to resolve this last month but he really does fight sleep if he is tired and if has too long a day nap will have a 3 hour for party at night.

So Saturday he had a great nights sleep
7am woke up
11am nap
1.5 long nap
12.30 pm wake
4.30pm 30 min nap
730pm bedtime
5am wake up although our clocks went forward so it was actually 6am in new time and 5am in old time
Naps: 2 hours
Night sleep: 9.5 hours
Total: 11.5 hours

Sunday
6am wakeup
10am nap
1 hour
11am wakeup
3pm nap
50 mins
3.50pm wakeup
7.30pm bedtime
1am wakeup
Wide awake, not in the least bit tired, 2.5 hours
3.30am/4am asleep
Naps total: 1 hour 50mins
Night sleep: 10.5 hours

Monday
9.35am wakeup
1pm nap, so tired couldn't make a 4 A time
1 hour - wouldn't sleep longer
2pm awake
Ended up having to do an early bedtime, asleep 630pm
But woke up 11pm until 2am
2am asleep
Total naps: 1 hour
Night sleep: 9 hours
Total sleep: 10 hours

Tuesday 
7am awake
11am nap
1 hour
12am awake
4pm nap
45 mins
4.45pm
730 bedtime refused to sleep, not sleepy. Kept him in cot, he got sleepy at 930pm and slept all night
Total naps: 1hr 45
Night time sleep: 8 hours
Total sleep: 9hr 45mins

Wednesday
6am wakeup
10am nap
2 hours!
12pm wakeup
5pm nap (refused to go down from 4pm onwards)
25 min catnap. Don't want to give more for fear of cot party again
Came downstairs to post on this forum in desperation!!
Tbc the rest of his day!

[jessmum46]

Looking at that I would say most definitely very OT . That is not a lot of sleep, particularly overnight.  Anything less than 10-10.5h night sleep is a very short night and combined with little day sleep, the most likely reason by far is overtiredness. 

Ok, so what to do?  (I am assuming here that you did not wake him from any of his naps - if that's wrong then please let me know).  After a good night it looks like 4h A time is about right first thing.  However after a short night I think it's probably too much, we get OT 1h naps here.  Today you got a good nap with 4h first A but that was a super-duper short night, he must have crashed out

I would suggest unless you get a good 10h+ night that you pull his first A back to 3h30-45 or so, or 4h after a good night.  If the nap is good, try around the same A for the second nap.  If it is short or an OT nap, pull back 15-30 mins on the A time.  Try to keep your day to as close to 12h as you can for now - so for example on the Saturday you posted I would have done 7pm BT (asleep for) as with two long A times already, the last A was probably too long and you got an OT short night.  Sunday I would have gone for 6.30pm.  Then Monday things got thrown off because of such a late WU.  I would try and start your day at roughly the same time, maybe allow an extra 30 mins lie-in after a bad night, but such a late start gave you a funny nap and then a long A but a short day, so night was crazy again.  Again yesterday I think your LO had a second wind by bedtime which is why he couldn't settle, 7pm BT would have been plenty of A time after a 45 min nap.

A rough rule I had in my head around this age with DD (and am rediscovering with DS!) is to aim for a total A time of about 10-10.5h across the day.  So that means if you are doing two 4h A times, the last A only really wants to be 2-2.5h.  Many bubs will happily go down for BT around 2h after a 30 min catnap or 2.5h after around a 45 min nap.  That can help you to decide if you need to wake LO from the second nap, or when to aim for bedtime.

At the moment (it isn't perfect btw....) I am doing something like this with DS:

WU aim 6.30-7 - so not out of cot until 6.30 if wakes earlier, or wake by 7
4h A
Nap - uncapped
3h45-4h A
Nap - capped aiming for 7pm BT so roughly 30-50 mins depending on earlier nap

Yesterday that worked out to 7am wake, 11-12.30 and 4.20-4.50 naps with 7pm BT.  Today, 7am wake, 11-11.50, 3.40-4.30 naps with 7pm BT.  So as I say not exactly perfect but the day is kept to a reasonable length and he gets to BT without being too OT as the last A is short.

I hope that helps a bit?

[Lycheewaves]

Thanks again for this! I should have said at the start, I really did think it was overtiredness and have been reading these forums and trying to do the things you've suggested over many days, thinking this was the case because EASY has worked really well for us so far.

However, he doesn't really obey the usual rules, so as you say, other mums have found that after a short catnap after a long awake time, their DS/DD's will go down for a BT at 2 hrs, 2.5 hr A time and roughly the same time each night. But my DS needs to be up for longer even if after a super short catnap. Today he's had a catnap of 25 mins but needed to be awake for 3 hours before he'd go down for BT. He does thankfully not need a lot of help to sleep, today once he got tired, he sent himself to sleep.

I am however willing to give anything a go, so will follow the above to the T and will post on progress!! It's seriously affecting our family life as my DH is away with work a lot so I'm just doing this on my own so it's super tough.

Thanks again for your really speedy answer, fingers crossed it helps!

[jessmum46]

Good luck, keep us posted so we can help you adjust as needed x

[Lycheewaves]

Ok we've been a bit all over the place with some successful nights and some awful ones.


Weds 1st April
6am awake
10am nap
12pm awake
410pm nap
445pm awake
845pm asleep. We tried a 730pm BT but he was just not tired and rolling around in his cot
Total A time: 12 hours

Thursday
Night waking, alert and won't sleep
130am awake
430am asleep
730am woken up
11am asleep
12am stirred but resettled him to sleep
4pm nap
4.30pm woke him up
730 BT but wouldn't sleep, rolling around in cot until
845pm asleep
Total A time: 14 hours
That morning night awake again
1am wakeup
530am asleep

Friday (Good Friday weekend slighty disturbed by weekends family activities with guests etc)
730am wake him up
10am asleep
12pm awake
4pm tried to get him to sleep wouldn't sleep until
5pm asleep
530pm woken from nap
730pm bedtime but too alert wouldn't sleep until
830pm asleep
Total A time: 14 hours

Saturday - hooray he sleeps through!
7am awake
1130pm asleep
1220pm awake
340pm asleep
430pm awake
815pm asleep (again was trying a 730 BT)
Total A time: 10.5 hours
Night waking again
230am awake
5am asleep

Sunday
715am woken up
1030am asleep
1130am awake
230pm asleep
315pm awake
750pm asleep
Total A time: 13.5 hours

Monday - hooray he sleeps through
615m awake
1045am asleep
215pm awake - 2.5 hour nap!
Decided to go for a one nap day
6.55pm asleep
Night wake
2am awake
330pm asleep
Total A time: 9 hours

So we are finding if he has too late a nap he is so difficult to put down for sleep at bedtime, he has to have been up for 4 hours before he will go back down even if the nap was only a 30 minute one. I think we need to ensure his nap finishes early but then there aren't enough hours for him to do 2 naps before say 3pm. Or if he only has 1 nap his A time like yesterday was only 9'hours so think he had another night waking because of it. His night waking he is very awake and wants to play

Would appreciate any advice! Should we try to move to a one nap day but extend to 5 hour A times?

[jessmum46]

If I'm honest it's kind of hard to interpret  your first A has ranged anywhere from 2.5-4.5 hours which makes it pretty hard to spot a pattern.  My feeling though is I think you are still dealing with a lot of OT, I know you say he's hard to get to bed after a late nap but just from the days you've posted I don't think you've tried an early enough bedtime to know that for sure - in that by the time you've tried I think he probably has a second wind and then is really tough to settle.  So just as examples - Weds I would have tried in bed for 7pm, Saturday I'd probably have done the same.  If you really give a shorter A to bed a good go and still no joy, then I think you could probably try one nap and test out whether your UT/LSN theory is right.  I'd personally be cautious about doing that right now, but you are the only one there with him seeing how he is coping - I can only look at the numbers and give you my best guess

[Lycheewaves]

Thanks again for your reply. For the days you pointed out I can see why you would have tried an earlier bedtime on Weds as he had too much A time by then but for the Saturday why would you have done that as he was on for 10.5 A time having slept through the night the previous day?

I have also been aiming to have him awake 10.5 hours in a day as you posted in an earlier post but for night wakings where he's awake for 2-3 hours do you count that into that days A times or do you compensate another way?

[jessmum46]

On Saturday he had STTN but 10.5h exactly, that often indicates OT in our house.  And then in the daytime he only had two 50 minute naps so 7pm bedtime would have given just over the 10.5h A time unless I'm adding up wrong?  It's not just about how much the sleep adds up to though, LO may well be much more tired than usual on two 50 minute naps as neither of those are really long enough to be restorative.  It's all a learning game though, and as I said before I am not there to see how your LO is coping, I can only advise based on what I've seen from my two - but all babies are different!  If you want to test the LSN/UT theory I'll be here to hold your hand

I wouldn't count NWs into the day's awake time, but be aware that LO had missed out on a lot of night sleep so you may want to aim more towards 10h total A (or even 9.5) on those days to allow some degree of catch-up x

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Just popping on as someone with a LSN LO in case you work through any OT and find you want /need to try the LSN theory.  We were on one nap by 10 months. I think you should rule out OT first as well, but I'm happy to share Jack's sleep peculiarities if you rule out OT and want to try something else. In the meantime I don't want to interfere as Katherine is already giving great advice 

[jessmum46]

Thanks hun for popping in would really appreciate your perspective too - the more eyes the better!

[athenasmom]

Hi I just wanted to offer another set of eyes and another thought. My LO is also pretty LSN and 10.5-11 hours are the standard nights here. So 10.5 hour nights might not be OT. I just threw it out there because looking at the posted days it seems to me that on days when he goes down after longer A time and around 8 rather than 7 sleeps trough. Maybe only 10.5 hours but no NW's. With my LO we get short NW's when she is OT but really long ones when she is UT. An NW that lasts 2-3 hours is more like an A time in my opinion. 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, we had exactly that too (your whole post, suzanna), and 10.5 hr nights are UT here as well. But when jack was smaller I did tend to rule out OT first, just so I knew where I was.  If that doesn't help then I'd start trying some days on one nap.  As Katherine says, at least you'll learn from how he gets on....

[Lycheewaves]

Thanks so much again for your replies guys, it really helps hearing from other mums who have been through this and can give me some advice or support!

I got really upset about it today for the first time today. I feel all I do is obsess over his routine and A times, watching the clock and working things out in my head over and over and over and still he's up for 3 hours in the night that I keep trying different things but still end up failing We went through so much sleep training with him at 4 months, taking away the props (dummy/us) and doing PU/PD for weeks to the point where he can fall asleep on his own. And then we had a halcyon period at 6/7 months when he was on textbook 3 hours 40 mins EASY and SSTN... Then he got hospitalised with Kawasaki Disease which was was awful, then laryngitis then gastroenteritis, so it's no wonder his sleep got so messed up. And I'm sure you have this too that you'll have well meaning people tell you to just let him cry it out. But we swore we would never do controlled crying (quite apart from that I don't have the stomach for it) but his night wakings are not accompanied by crying. He just makes noises to get you to come to his cot and when you do, he's super smiley and just wants to play. He cries only if he thinks you're going to leave the room and he's losing all chance of getting some play time. When he's actually tired, which is usually on the dot 2 or 3 hours, he just falls asleep without me holding him or shushing him or patting him or doing anything. It's like he just has to be tired then he pops off to sleep. It's just when he's up it's a minimum 2 hours.

I have been trying a slightly new routine as I do think he's not OT, I have tried early bedtimes but he hates being put to bed when he's not what he considers himself tired that he cries really, really hard, like he's in pain! He never cries this much even when he's up in the night.  Anyway so I'd really appreciate your advice on how we go on to see if he's UT.

@athenasmom and @lovelylilyandjack, what do your routines look like at 10 months with your babies? Did you do anything to compensate on the days they were night waking for hours?

Here's the last few days just to see if this helps. I've been trying to give him an overall A time of 10 hrs 50 mins and if he's up in the night for 2, 3 hours, I make this part of the A time and count it from his last BT, with mixed results.

Friday
(Thursday BT 7.30 pm, asleep at 8pm)
2am Awake
2.30am Asleep
7.15am Awake
11am - 1.20pm 2hrs 20 nap
5.20pm - 5.35pm - 15 min catnap (shortened by me)
BT 7.30pm asleep at 8.10pm
Total Awake time: 10  hr 45

Saturday
2am awake
5am asleep
6.30am awake
10.15am - 12.35am - 2hr 20 nap
2.55pm - 3.10pm - 15 min catnap (shortened)
BT 7.30pm
Total Awake Time: 13 hrs 25 mins

Sunday
3.50am awake
5.50am - 7.30am asleep
7.30am awake
9.50am - 10.50am 1 hour nap (had to go swimming)
2pm - 2.45pm - 45 min nap
6pm BT
Total Awake Time: 10 hrs 15 mins

Monday
3.10am awake
5.30am - 8.20 am asleep
8.20am awake
12.30pm - 14.45pm 2hr 15 nap
7pm BT
Total Awake Time: 10 hrs 35 mins

Tuesday
2.10am awake
4.50am - 8.30am asleep
12.15pm - 14.55pm 2 hour 40 nap
BT 7.35pm
Total Awake Time: 10 hrs 55 mins

SLEPT THROUGH!

Wednesday
6.30am awake
11.30 - 1.30pm - 2 hr nap
Refused to go down for a catnap I tried to give him from 4.30 to 6pm, in pram, in car, just very alert
7.15 BT
11pm awake - I think because his room got too hot and he woke, tried to coax him back to sleep but got more and more awake... Up for 3 hours
Total Awake Time: 10 hrs 45 mins

Thursday
Awake until 1.50am
1.50am - 6am Asleep
6am Awake
9.15am - 10am 45 min nap
1pm - 2.45 1hr 45 min nap
BT 7.45pm
Total Awake Time (since bedtime on Weds night): 14 hrs 5 mins
Total Awake time (since waking at 6am): 11 hrs 15