Thoughts on NWs - 31 mo

[K-JDA]

Hi all

Just wondering if some fresh eyes might help me on DS sleep which has gone a bit wonky in the last week. 

DS is 31 months. From a sleep perspective he is a touchy sleeper so we have had our significant ups and downs in the past!

All going great since December after some help from BW about a major wonky patch  - routine basically of WU 6-6.30, nap 1pm for 1hr-1hr10, bed 7.30. In the last month we have had stellar nights of 11.5hr plus and him needing loads of sleep.

Since last Monday we had 3 nights of long NWs for 2 hours, then STTN for 3 nights then a NW last night for an hour. He has then been up each day from 6 or just before.

He has 3 of his 4 back molars which have all come in over the last 6 weeks before this started and only had 1 or 2 NWs in all that time. The last one is under the gun but coming through so far as I can see yet. Since the NEs began last week I am medicating at bedtime and NWs just in case....

Language development is pretty impressive too at the moment - he is just full of conversation and questions so could be developmental too 

Also he is having a major patch of SA with me at the moment...

During the NWs he does not wake up crying but shouting Mummy. If I ignore then he will cry. If I reassure from outside the door he will cry. If I go in he is fine but if I try to leave he gets very upset. WIWO just sends him crazy! The only way I can resettle is to repeat sleepy phrase and lie on the floor by the cot or door if I can make it that far.

Bedtime is still going ok (often have to reassure from the door a few times) and he is falling asleep within 5/10 mins so not sure if nap related or not?

If it is a case of just riding it out for teeth/development then do you think I am dealing with the NWs ok? What do people do if their LO will not tolerate WIWO?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Buttonbobs]

Hiya,

It does sound like it might be developmental and teeth related. My DD had similar periods around the same time. Has he been sleeping this same routine since December?  It could be time to cap that nap further, although I would normally expect to see nap or BT refusal sometimes as well as the NWs. What do you think?

I have been able to use WIWO out with my DD when she is having routine sleep issues, but have always beeded to use a combination of that and GW when she's having issues with SA. Are you able to reassure him in the day and remind him night is for sleeping, and explain what you will be doing in advance? Sort of prepare him fore WIWO if you see what I mean? Does he have a gro clock or similar to help you explain?

When he's crying at night is it like a tantrum cry?

[K-JDA]

Hi

Thanks for your reply.

I bobbed him down to the doctors today and the ear which is next to where the final tooth is coming through is red inside but not infected so the doctor said he is likely getting some earache as well as the tooth on its way - poor thing.

I don't think it is a nap thing although his nap has been this length since December - he is generally quick to settle at nursery I believe and tbh I have apop'ed naps in the car for a while now at weekends and he is gone before I have even get round the corner!

Yes he has good comprehension when I talk to him about bedtime and we have a grow clock so will persevere on that front along with lots of bedtime cuddles for the SA.

I guess his crying is more tantrum....but if he is in pain he does not always cry lots but wants you close by...

When you combine WIWO and GW how do you do it?

[Buttonbobs]

Oh poor thing, those ear pains can be particularly nasty in the early hours of the morning. I'm glad you were able to get him checked out.

With DD we've always stayed with her if she appeared to need it and then as she calms let her know we'll be leaving her room. Sometimes she asks us to sit on the top of the stairs or halfway down while she settles, and we do agree to this. But then over a period of time once we know she's not ill or unsettled again we'll reduce the length of time that we stay fairly quickly so really we are doing WIWO again. I don't know if that makes sense, there's probably not any true pattern to it really as we just sort of follow her mood a bit. She's pretty well an angel type so any props and dependence seem to fade fairly easily after her difficult patch has passed. I hope that makes sense.

I think if there's any pain at all, then providing reassurance (and medicine if you are happy to) is probably the right thing to do, then go back to sleep training when you're the pain has pased.

[cath~]

((hugs)) earache can be nasty poor thing

During the NWs he does not wake up crying but shouting Mummy. If I ignore then he will cry. If I reassure from outside the door he will cry. If I go in he is fine but if I try to leave he gets very upset. WIWO just sends him crazy! The only way I can resettle is to repeat sleepy phrase and lie on the floor by the cot or door if I can make it that far.

...

If it is a case of just riding it out for teeth/development then do you think I am dealing with the NWs ok? What do people do if their LO will not tolerate WIWO?

With L I used WIWO at BT but for NWs (esp when they were discomfort-related) she needed/wanted more presence so I'd stay with her, sometimes with a hand on her.  She always fell back to sleep in her cot but often I'd stay with her.  Once she was over whatever was causing the NWs she went back to STTN without me actually having to do any STing for NWs iyswim.  I think the key was that she still settled by herself at BT (unless really upset) and it actually didn't matter too much that I'd been giving more assistance at NWs.

I'd still recommend doing the minimum that they want/need (e.g. don't pick up and cuddle to sleep if they're ok with you just sitting in their room and saying a sleepy phrase) but don't worry about giving a bit more assistance at NWs, especially if they are caused by discomfort.

HTH x

[K-JDA]

Thanks for that - very helpful. I think this is the way forward for DS particularly given his touchy nature.

[Clairehv]

No advice I just read the thread as we are having similar issues although more at bedtime with my 31 month old.
Hopefully he gets back on track soon. X

[K-JDA]

Thanks Claire - I saw your thread and big hugs to you too. Can't recommend GW enough as a method to help when you lose IS at bedtime - worked brilliantly for me before Christmas when we had a 2 month disaster period of sleep and BW helped me through.

This too shall pass!

[Clairehv]

No sign of it passing yet and everything including getting her up to bath has become a battle.
Feel really down about it and lost on what to do..
I will post a new thread for advice.

How did GW work for you?
I haven't been able to break the hand holding without hysterics..
Thanks

[Buttonbobs]

((Hugs)) Claire.

Unfortunately hysterics can be a big part of any sleep training with a toddler, as they are just not happy about change, and not afraid to let you know about it! Just remember if you can, it is not your primary role to help her "calm down" or to stop the crying or shouting etc, if she needs to cry and scream and complain then you can hear her and listen and provide comfort, and not leave her. She will eventually calm herself, and will have been reassured by your presence even if she is angry that you weren't hold her hand.

[K-JDA]

That's how we did it - lots of protest/crying but I was there with him the whole time. Our situation was really bad of having lost IS at bedtime and lots of NWs due to illness and teething where I had got into the habit of taking him into bed and let him have milk at NWs!!! This went on for about 6 weeks - eek!! So with BW advice and support we tackled the whole lot in 1 go. It was very tough but the results were great and in no time my happy boy was back as not constantly OT.

So we did:

Talked about it during the day to say that tonight DS was going to fall asleep in his cot by himself but that I would be there and love him very much etc. Lots of mummy time that day too as finished work early and had some time with him after work.

Night 1 - usual bedtime routine, lots of extra cuddles and into cot. I sat on the floor next to cot, not making direct eye contact, repeated sleepy phrase. Lots of crying/standing/throwing lovie out of cot. Just gave lovie back, sat down and repeated sleepy phrase and left it slightly longer each time before returning so that this didn't become a game. Just repeated sleepy phrase and sat until he eventually laid down and went to sleep. Probably took over an hour the first night. Then repeated for NWs and gave no milk. The first night he (and me!!) got a ridiculously small amount of night sleep as we were sorting NWs too so had a really low key day at home on the Saturday.

Night 2 - as above. Only took 20/30 mins to settle.

Night 3 - as above. Again didn't take too long and didn't need to repeat sleepy phrase as much.

Night 4 - moved nearer door

Over about 7 nights in total I moved to the door, sat in the door way and then outside the door but left open.

Think we had a few nights afterwards where I had to hang out in the landing with the door to (we don't fully close it) and just repeated sleepy phrase if started to call out.

The trick was to move further away as soon as DS became comfortable with my previous location.

We also cut the nap by 15 mins at the same time as the advice I got was that part of the bedtime resistance was due to UT. The 2 together sorted us out. Worth getting a view as to your routine as I am currently finding with DS that his sleep needs have dropped and he is nearly ready for a tweak to his nap again.

Also we have a gro clock and I reinforced the use of this too at the same time as DS is prime to EWs.

Do you have a night light? Might be worth considering. We don't actually have one in the room but outside his door which we leave slightly open.

Hope that helps.


We seem to be back to normal now and no NWs this week but as I say I think his sleep needs may have dropped as getting some EWs. This could be due to a combination of teeth, moving up to pre-school and major leap in language all in the last week so am going to leave it another few days before changing his nap. Hate early starts though!!

[Clairehv]

Thanks Kate
Ok I think I just need to implement and follow through.
We capped her nap yesterday
Her day looked like this

WU 6.10am
Nap 12.45 (didn't resist fell asleep in 2 mins but was holding my hand-I left straight away)
Woke her up 1.50pm (took 15 mins to persuade her to get out of cot)
Bath 6.15
Into cot 6.50pm after story (again climbed,off my knee and switched lamp off herself)
7.35pm asleep after faffing, wanting another wee on potty, saying wanted Daddy, holding my hand

We had a NW unfortunately, she was coughing badly from 3.45am to 4.15, I gave some medicine and water. Then as she was awake wanted,wee on potty, which she did.
Then she fell asleep by 5.15am holding my hand.

Today woke up at 8am.

So tonight instead of sitting on the rocking chair shall I sit on the floor so she can't expect my hand.
Is night night, sleepy time, an ok phrase?

Thanks for the support and I feel really positive that you have sorted it out without resorting to leaving to cry.

Prior to yesterday we were waking up from nap at 1hr 15 mins so will try 1 hour today.
I do believe she still needs a nap.
X

[ailish90]

Just wondering how you're getting on. I have a 30 month old who is very similar. Always slept through until 2/3 weeks ago (she slept through colds and the baby crying for hours on end at night). It seems to be a combination of potty training and Daddy being away for a week has just thrown things off completely.  She only wants her Daddy to settle her now and is waking at night for him. He is wrecked as she won't let me help out.

[K-JDA]

Hi

NWs have all settled fine now thanks. Think it was a developmental thing in the end combined with moving up a class in nursery. We were just consistent with maintaining independent sleep at bedtimes by reassuring from the door (outside) if needed and then just sat by the door (inside) during NWs and then they just stopped.

Got some early wake ups now but that is a whole other story - probably nap related!!! Will probably start a new post on that one next week!

Hope things settle for you too. Compassion and consistency seem to be the key things to me which are so hard when you yourself are pooped!