Sudden early rising after starting to STTN

[Gecko2014]

Thanks for replying again but... I'm getting a little confused.

I agree that pushing A time is needed given that we had good naps (more than one sleep cycle) and have since lost them. We don't have any issue with settling or resettling so I think it must be about the level of tiredness (OT or UT) rather than AP or other issue impacting on getting back to sleep between cycles.

When I first started pushing the morning A time (from 3.5h, aiming for around 5h), I was pushing 15 minutes per day and the first lady said that this was too fast for my baby and was going to making him OT. She suggested doing it more gradually to let him adjust. So I pulled back at around the 4h-4h15 mark before increasing further. Now... I get the sense that you are saying that I could do a big push and get to 1 nap or at least a much later nap time in a few days. So... I'm confused about how much I should be pushing and how quickly if I am already dealing with some OTness.

The current situation we have is 2 short naps. 1 around 10 and 1 around 3, depending on exact WU time. Occasionally NW and some EW. Doing the same thing every day, I sometimes get a 1h15 but I can't for the life of me see what is different on these days.

[Martini~]

Honey I totally agree with Fleur and never told you to move nap quickly. I wrote that nap transition till 11 will probably last couple of weeks. However I have also shared my experience with my DS which is probably not th best example of how that should be done:)! But still it worked. I guess what I wanted to say that it really depends on the kid. Some tolerate big push, some prefer slow moves. Sometimes when you have to push to much different time for a nap it's fine to push at once as if you do it step by step you would be always behind your LO times which are galloping these days.

Sorry for confusion and hope that it clearly everything!

[Gecko2014]

I do feel like I'm always behind his times at the minute. 1 day it seems to work, the next it doesn't so he's probably moved forward already. He does however seem 'ready' at 4h15. He settles easily etc but just doesn't keep sleeping. So tired enough to settle, but not tired enough properly.

[trimbler]

Just wondering what you do before nap time? I've had some success when pushing to have a solid routine (eg lunch, time to poo, nappy change, story, into room with song, sleeping bag, PD), but being out before that, as it can be easier to chill in the buggy on the way home. Alternatively, with DS I remember giving him lunch (and nappy change) out and then the trip home in the buggy would be relaxing and he'd go,straight down once we arrived home. Does sound to me like you need to push from 4h 15... I'm quite chicken so I remember with DS I'd push him in 5min increments!

[Gecko2014]

I think he might be able to cope with bigger pushes, based on his personality. And a few rough days to get a to good routine has to be better than a slow drawn out one with chronic OT over a longer period. This is also looking like a good option because must husband forgot to put him to bed yesterday when I was out resulting in 5hrs A time. He was tired but not beside himself or anything and then had a whopping 2 hour nap.

What was a little disappointing however was that still had an EW at 5:15am this morning. It's winter in Australia so it's cold and dark for at least another hour. His room is warm and he has a massive 130ml bottle before bed because I was out (when I pump, I only get 60mls so this was a huge supper for him). The only glitch to the routine was that he rejected the second nap and because DH was in charge at BT it was a bit later than it should have been for such a long stretch in the afternoon. I'm not sure if this caused enough OT to maintain the EW. Im fairly sure I have ruled out hunger, cold, light and household noise.

I've tired the 10:30 nap time again today (5hrs awake) but there was a very short nap (about 5-10minutes) on the breast at 6am. I'm not sure if that is likely to throw things and if I should have pushed longer as a result of that.

Re: pre-nap routine: We are fairly consistent in the 10-15minutes before bed but less so in the hour before. BF and lunch are generally after the nap because we are still fairly early in the day and he has a snack at 9am. We try to do a walk around 830/900 but too much later I am worried that he will fall asleep in the pram or car (and thus give me more UT napping). I try to cuddle him or read stories if he is struggle to be awake for the last bit. When it's nap time, we go into his room, draw the blinds, read some stories (unless he's too tired), get into sleeping bag, brief cuddle, and turn on while noise. I find he can go from quite animated to restful and then asleep quite quickly so I think the cues are working for us.

[trimbler]

Sorry about that EW, does sound OT to me because of that mini nap at the breast so soon after. But it's hard when you're not in control! Sounds like you have good sleep cues, I wasn't suggesting you change anything  just offering suggestions for pushing out A times if he struggles with that. Sounds like he did well with that push the other day Just go at the pace you feel comfortable with, I think. How did it go after that EW?

(Btw still hoping Martii will jump in with more specific advice about long am/short pm naps and timings as I know I'm of limited help but still following along!)

[Gecko2014]

He seems to go fine through the day with the EWs. Generally pattern at the moment is EW (530-550), nap at 10:30 (pushing toward 11). Possible nap at 330 or 4 but with mixed success. I'm getting either nap refusal or a late nap (if we rock him for example) that interferes with settling at 6. I'm thinking of letting the normal 6:30 bedtime ride, even if the afternoon has been rubbish to see if that is what's throwing the EWs. I feel like I'm clutching at straws.

Mood wise, you wouldn't know he's sleeping so little.

[Martini~]

I will i will give me a chance as I am totally overwhelmed with my daily job:/ ughhh. Next week looks better!

[trimbler]

Oh sorry Martii not meaning to nag at all I just didn't want you to think I was already taking care of Gecko as I know you'd have better advice, but I'm still chatting for moral support so sorry if that came over wrong, you do so much on here and of course all on top of 'real life', sorry to hear it's been so overwhelming

Gecko, good to hear his mood is ok, maybe he is getting enough sleep overall it's just a matter of shifting more of it to the early hours so you can also get enough sleep! Go with your instincts, you know him best and the worst that can happen is that you find something else that doesn't work - which will help towards your quest for something that does work

[Gecko2014]

I wish I could agree with that at the minute. I'm a bit frustrated by the whole situation and not feeling like I'm getting anywhere with it, despite lots of reading, analysing and trialling different things.

You have a LO who is a very similar age by the look of it. Can you tell me if this: If all you knew was that I had a LO, aged 12 months and that he was starting the day between 5:30 and 6:00, what routine would you recommend for the day (time of first nap, time of second, bedtime and meal times)?

[newkidontheblock]

Joining in again. Sorry to hear that things are still up in the air. Would you like to post your routine from a few days for us to take a look at?

We did the long am, short pm with a lot of success from 7 months on. For a few months it was long am nap ( we started getting 2 hour + naps) and then a 30 minute catnap usually in the sling with bed 1.5 hours later. I know there are many babies who can do a long A before bed but Eris wasn't one of them. Any longer and she would get a second wind. Then as her A times got longer, I capped the pm nap some more as I did not want BT getting pushed later (although that is a normal phase in the 2-1 transition) However, since 11 months, we've been doing long am uncapped - if the nap ends too early -anytime before 2 pm- then I give her a quick 10 minute catnap. It doesn't matter even if it is on the later side as it doesn't seem to interfere with bedtime - it just refreshes her a bit. And then I move straight on to BT. 

Regarding your question (I know it was for Trimbler but hope you don't mind me chiming in) I would first want to know what timings are you going for with your routine. If it was a 6-6 day or even 6.30, then a 5.30/6 waking might not be so out of the ordinary as he would still have done a long enough night. And I totally feel your pain with the EWs as DD has started with this too and seems to have permanently opted for 11 hour nights. Ugh.  But if his nights are less than 10 - 10.5  hours, then OT is in the mix. What I did with DD when we had a ton of these EWs is to keep her in her room till as close to normal WU time as possible  - even if she didn't go back to sleep and was wide awake, I would still keep her in her room in the dark. Then I would make a bit deal about waking up and saying good morning etc. BUT I would count the WU time as when she actually woke up and not from when I got her up and count A from then.

I can't remember if I posted this and I am too tired to read back but  have you seen this
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

Maybe these sample routines would be of some help to you
chronological EASY samples, 10-12 months

[Gecko2014]

Hi,
I don't mind who cuts in.

Ideally I would like to do a 7-7 or 6:30-7 but we seem to have slipped into a 6-6. When the naps are super short (either too early in the day or just too short combined duration) I do the 6pm BT to try and salvage the situation. When I have a run of inadequate naps, I have a run of 6pm BTs as well. The 6pm BT is difficult for me to do around family meal times and such so it's not a habit I'd like to keep if I can avoid it. The short A times don't seem to work for him. Anything up to 3hrs and he seems to have trouble settling, sometimes even 3.5 these days.

For a while we were getting 11h nights. This seemed to work for us. This was just after he started STTN, I think, but lately it has been more like 10. He is getting 12hrs overall for the day fairly regularly. With the EWs, we keep things low key until 630. If my husband goes into the room, they play quietly in there until 6. If I go he insists on feeding, so I bring him straight to our room (all in the dark at this time) and we feed laying down. If he's going to go back to sleep it is more likely if I don't have to move him out of my arms and into bed. We don't do the dramatic wake up at 6:30 but my DS1 appears almost like clock work at that time and that's the signal.

It is possible that we had a breakthrough today. But I won't be able to confirm that until morning.

Here's the last 3 days.

Saturday
WU 5:40 (10hrs)
E 630 (BF); ~730 (Breakfast); ~1000 (snack)
S 1050-1220 in bed
E 1230 (BF); 130 (lunch); probably another snack
S offered at 4pm, rejected
E 430 (BF); 500 (dinner)
E 600 (bottle with grandma - first time being put to bed by someone else)
S In bed at 620. Relaxing going in but got second wind after about an hour - Not asleep until 745. Hard to tell exactly what happened from what my mum told me but I think maybe he went to sleep for 20-30 minutes in that time.

Sunday
WU 5:30 (9hrs44 give or take 20-30mins)
E 550 (BF); ~700 (Breakfast); ~930 (snack)
S 1030-1130 in bed
E 1150 (BF); 100 (lunch); probably another snack
S 315-345 in car
E 500 (dinner)
E 620 (BF and cows milk top up)
S In bed at 7. Resting quietly for 30 minutes before getting upset. In bed settling at 7:40, asleep 7:45

Monday
WU 600 (1020hrs)
E 610 (BF); ~700 (Breakfast); ~900 (snack); 1045 (lunch)
S 1120-120 in bed
E 130 (BF); 330 (snack); 430 (snack rejected)
E 530 (dinner)
E 630 (BF and top up) - fell asleep for 10 on breast, awake for bottle. Into bed 655
S started sleeping 720

[trimbler]

Yay for later WU, 2h nap and better settling at BT How was the night?

[Gecko2014]

Horrible. Optimism has been dashed.

LO was up at 1130, calm to start with them hysterical. Didn't settle with patting, cuddling, feeding or coming into bed with us. I let him comfort suck again after 2 hours. He eventually went to sleep around 2, I think. He did sleep in a bit this morning until 645. I'll try to keep the nap around 11 today but will have to see how he copes with 5hrs A time after a broken night.

I felt like we had a good day yesterday but it seems not.

[trimbler]

Oh no  how exhausting she did end up with quite a long day so wouldn't be surprised if OT but of course there may be something else going on - do you think there could be any teething or other discomfort going on? On a positive note, at least she woke up later so maybe the EW cycle is breaking? Sorry, only just got to this now - how did yesterday go? Tbh I might have pushed out the nap a little or at least kept it at 1120 rather than making it earlier, especially with the 'lie in', but I realise it's too late for me to say that now!