So many questions, 8 month old crying at BT FEED

[firemom]

Hello! I have so many questions and I'm so confused. I don't know where to start. I'm worried my baby should be eating more. He used to eat over 30 oz of milk/formula a day. Now he'll barely drink 20.
 We used to HAVE to give him a supplemental bottle of formula at bedtime cuz I just couldn't pump enough. Plus at bedtime I only had a few ounces left.

Before I go much further I should explain that when I'm home he is nursed but when I'm at work his father gives him a bottle. Sounds ordinary enough except I work 24 hours, from 7am to 7am. So some days he was getting only bottle fed and other days he was being BF plus a supplemental bottle at bedtime. Which used to suit him just fine. But over the last 2 months he's began really fighting the bottle. It makes me so sad cuz I can't be home everyday and I want to know he's eating good. And honestly his nursing hasn't been as good either.  I've been telling myself he was just very efficient. Mostly he's done nursing in less than 10 minutes, usually less than 8. He's still healthy but I worry. I don't think he's put on any weight in the last few weeks. I wonder if I should quit BF so he gets the bottle everyday, then maybe he would be confused?

We tried dropping to 3 feeds and that helped a little. But he still cries so bad at bedtime. Why does he cry about being fed? He had to be hungry. I don't know what to do.
But other days when he'll only take the breast I'm happy we still have that for him. Plus my supply is dropping, used to get 28 oz per day now i only get 20. Today I only got 18. Please help with any suggestions.

I don't believe it's too much solids. We've gone super easy on that.

And then on top of the weird eating, he started waking up early. Which we've been trying to fix by extending his A time and dropping the cat nap.  But he's still waking early. And over the last couple days his naps are crumbling apart. He's back to waking after 35 minutes. I extend both his morning and afternoon nap when he does this.

Please help, I just don't know what to do. Maybe I'm worrying for nothing. But he's dropped a third of his intake.

[becj86]

Hi

I think the best thing to be would be to get a few facts:
- firstly, weigh him and find out if he is gaining, check where he is on the growth charts and see if he's following a centile line.
- if he's dropped down the centiles and/or you're worried, get a doctor to look him over and check he's not ill

What's his routine? Could be he associates BT feed with BT and he's not tired yet? By the sounds of dropping the catnap at this age and the sleep disturbances, he's probably in need of a fairly hefty A time increase and this could well be at least part of the reason.
What is he eating in terms of solids? I note you say you're not worried about it being too much, but you say this issue of fighting the bottle has been going for the last 2 months and I suspect that may correspond with when he started solids... or maybe when you went back to work? Anything else that changed at 6 months?

Keep in mind that your supply is not indicated by what you can express and your milk changes to meet his needs so a reduced intake is not necessarily a concern on its own. Even something as simple as a mum's period returning can change the taste of their milk slightly and have babies refusing milk...

Clearly you know him best, you're his mum. If you're feeling that something's not right, its probably there's something awry but in this case, it could be as simple as routine not being quite right for him.

[*Ali*]

Hugs. You already have great above from Bec and I'd be interested to hear you answers to her questions. I just wanted to at that an 8-10 minute feed for an 8mo is likely plenty.  None of mine have had feeds that long after about 4-5mo.

Are you feeding both sides at each feed?

[firemom]

Hi sorry it took me so long to get back on here. Busy at home, busy at work.

I'm feeling better today, less worried. I will probably always worry, guess it's part of being a mom.

He doesn't appear sickly and he isn't without energy, except that I think he'd love to go back to being awake for 1h45m and take a 35minute nap 5x a day.

He could associate the bedtime feed with bedtime, it's part of the routine. Usually, He's changed into pjs, lavender oil applied, fresh diaper, feed, a book and a lullaby then laid in his crib. But the bottle is the only thing he cries about. He'll fight it and fight it then when he's exhausted he'll suck it down. He rarely cries when he's laid down and when he does it usually only takes a few minutes of reassurance for him to settle in.

Nothing I can think of changed at 6 months. I went back to work at 2 months . and I haven't gotten my period back. After my first baby, it took 2 years to come back.

He did cut his first teeth right at 7 months, so we assumed that was a big part of it. But even when he's had ibuprofen ahead of time, he still cries.

Here's the routine we've been trying for (some days he falls asleep by 8:30am and that necessitates a late afternoon catnap). He's been early waking for about as long as he's been crying about the bedtime bottle.

5:30ish Awake (will no longer go back to sleep at this time)
            Nurse/feed
8          Solids (1Tbsp oatmeal made with milk and 1 Tbsp Fruit)
9:30 - 10 Down for nap for 1 hour
11         Nurse/Feed
12         Solids (1-2 tbsp Chicken, rice, veggie mix, a little fruit)
2-2:30   Nap 1.5 Hours, but the last few days more like 35minutes
4           Nurse, bottle or solids (1-2 Tbsp variety)
6:30      Wind down in his room
6:45      Bedtime routine
7:15      Asleep (sometimes as late as 8 if he cried about the bottle a whole lot)

Sometimes my husband will use a catnap if his afternoon nap was really crappy. He's tried an early bedtime without success.

If anything, I think he is overtired. 4+ hours A time first thing in the morning isn't great I know. I was following some sleeping advice from here to try to get him to sleep in longer and quit catching up with an early nap. We're only going to try this for 1 more week, if by then he isn't sleeping later then we re going to quit trying to change his early wake up. At that point we are going to try for something like this:

5:30 Awake
        Nurse
        Solids
9      Morning Nap 1 - 1.5 hrs
10:30 Nurse
        Solids
2      Afternoon nap 1.5 hrs
3:30 Awake
        Nurse or Solids
5:30 Bedtime Routine
6ish  Asleep

I do feed both sides when he nurses. One side is a lame duck, and the other side does the heavy lifting.

I guessed I wasn't expressing as much because he isn't eating as much. Either from the bottle or from me. His intake is just down. And I know his sleep is getting off balance. I don't know if the early waking is throwing off the day or if the lower milk intake is causing the early waking.

[*Ali*]

Take as long as you like. We're not going anywhere

Check out this info from Kellymom http://kellymom.com/bf/pumpingmoms/pumping/milkcalc/
You'll see that average breastmilk intake for a 6mo is 25oz but that the normal range is 19-32oz. After 6mo this will eventually fall to an average of 19oz by 11-16mo and typical amounts of 14-19oz for 12-24mo and 10-12oz for 24-36mo (if of course people choose to BF until those ages). So as you can see a natural decline in milk intake as solids becomes a bigger part of their diet. By 12mo it will typically be 50/50 solids/milk. So it could be that your LO is just needing less milk as he gets older rather than a problem. 20oz is still well within the normal range.

It's also perfectly normal for one Breast to produce significantly more than the other. In fact I've never met a mother who couldn't name her better side. 

I would definitely stick to offering at least 4 times a day. This would be really early for a BF baby to be on 3 feeds and he almost certainly won't be able to take 3 big enough feeds to get what he could get from 4 feeds. It is more normal to drop to 3 feeds between 10-12mo (or even later).

Is he sleeping through the night without a feed? If so then I think it is safe to say he isn't going hungry. Otherwise he would be waking to eat at night.

I don't think you need to give up breast feeding unless of course you want to but I would just carry on as you are.

The crying on the bottle could just be that he prefers the Breast. I'm not trying to make you feel guilty and I know you can't offer the Breast when you aren't there obviously but it could just be the case. Maybe he is tired and hungry by then and he feels sorry for himself that he isn't getting a boob  could just be the way he is and like settling our kids into school, it has to be done because we can't all keep them home with us 24/7. My DD is younger and only gets one bottle of EBM a day at BT but she went through a phase of crying for 5-10 mins before accepting it. We took a 10 day break and tried again and she has been better (I know that isn't an option for you). I find she is even less likely to fuss if I give her the bottle in a light room (often while I'm doing BT stories for my older two) before we go into her bedroom, close the blinds, put her in her woombie, sing songs and lay her in her basket. She is more likely to cry if I try to do it last thing before laying her down like we used to. Have you tried changing the routine up a little? Perhaps he would take it better when distracted with a book for example.

And can I just say that I think you are awesome for continuing to BF with such a demanding work schedule so big fat high five to you amazing lady! 

[firemom]

Thank you, that does make me feel better. At least I'm not as worried when he only eats 20oz per day. We tried cutting out solids, and he jumped back up to 30oz per day... for like 2 days. Now, some he's back around 25-26 oz per day. Which I would probably be okay with if he was still sleeping through the night. The last 2 nights he's be up. And we've fed him each time because he was crying for it. Last night was rather rough, he was up for nearly 2 hours, perhaps teething again.

I've been watching his weight closely, and he has put on a few ounces in the last couple weeks. And he doesn't LOOK like an underfed baby. He's not the biggest baby on the block but he's not skinny either. He'll be visiting the doctor for his 9 month appointment next week. So I'm going to bring up these questions then.

I really appreciate the advise. Thank you so much. I don't know why but I'm worrying so much more with this baby than I did my first. Maybe because I'm 10 years older and when I was 24 I still thought I was invincible.

Today, I'm going to offer him formula/breast as much as I can. Perhaps offering a "second helping" an hour and a half after each feeding.

[*Ali*]

Good luck. Let us knkw how it goes.

[firemom]

I guess last night was better, sort of. He still woke up but he didn't need to be fed to go back to sleep.

I estimate he drank between 30-32 oz yesterday. Today he drank around 27 ounces.

Last night he was up several times, one time fully awake and I was able to quickly ssh/pat him back to sleep, and then at least 6 more times he would stir, whimper, cry until one of us would go in to shh/pat again.

Do you think it'd be confusing for him to BF 4x a day when I'm home but only get 3 bottles a day when my husband is home? He'd still be getting roughly the same amount of ounces.

Also, how long should I wait to try solids again?

And I guess I should probably mention that I think we're getting close to some milestones. Today he pulled himself to standing all by himself.

[*Ali*]

I'd probably try to keep the 4 milk feeds the same.

How long has it been with no solid food? I wouldn't wait too long, 4-7 days max.

Hitting milestones can definitely scupper things.

[firemom]

It's been either 5 or 7 days, I can't remember.

How would you suggest adding them back? One feed at a time, like tomorrow, offer him a breakfast. Or go right back to 2 feeds per day, a breakfast and a lunch?


Also, some nights he's still not interested in his BT bottle. I know what you mean, that he just might be feeling sorry for himself and want the boob over the bottle. And I guess I wouldn't sweat him not wanting a lot at BT if he was still sleeping good. But I believe Tracy advised "tanking them up". And that used to work great for us. He'd easily guzzle 10oz before bed and he would sleep 12 or more hours. Now it's a good night if he'll eat 6oz and sleep 10hrs.

I have been nursing him 4x a day. But that puts his post-afternoon nap nursing and his BT nursing only about 3 hours apart. I've tried feeding him before his afternoon nap but he just falls asleep before he gets a good feeding. Any suggestions on when to time the afternoon and BT feed? Maybe one feeding halfway between when he wakes up and when BT would be? Like if he woke up at 3p and we're laying him down at 6/6:30 should we feed him at 4:30/5? Then maybe offer a few more ounces before bed?

He'd probably go to sleep without any BT bottle but I'm sure he'd wake through out the night. He isn't sleeping through the night anymore.

[*Ali*]

Maybe build up slowly again. Start with breakfast and add in lunch after a couple of days?

Would he take the bottle (or rest of it) when asleep? Sometimes my DD gets so OT that she cries herself to sleep refusing the bottle. I wait 10 minutes and then just put it in her mouth while she is lying down in her bed and she drinks it all while pretty much asleep. So like a DF but at a more convenient time.

If he is still having two long naps of 1.5hrs in the day then maybe a 10hr night is all he needs. They often shorten nights when getting ready to begin the 2-1 nap transition around 10mo. Do you think he needs a longer A time after his second nap perhaps? 3hrs isn't very long for his age and it might push the third and last (BT) feeds further apart and make him more tired for a later morning WU. I would just feed after his second nap and let him take what he will. If he isn't having a solids dinner then he should be hungry again by BT I would think. Maybe when you introduce a solid dinner you could move the third BF to before the second nap. It isn't necessarily a problem if he only takes a small feed for that third feed. It is better than nothing and he is getting as much as he wants which is the important thing.

[firemom]

Thank you. I gave him a bfast yesterday, which he was happy about. He always wants whatever we're eating, probably mostly curious, but he ate a good meal, egg yoke smashed with formula and a tbsp pears. Also, gave him a supplemental bottle where "lunch" would usually be at. Yesterday was our best bedtime in a long time. And the first night he's slept through in a week!

If he does refuse a bottle again in the future, I will try giving to him after he's asleep. I've tried something like that before but it was probably an hour or so after he'd went to sleep. He only drank about a half an ounce.

Yesterday:
6:30 Awake
7 Nurse
8 Bfast
10:10 Nap
11:10 Awake
11:30 Nurse
2:20 3oz Bottle
2:30 Nap (fussing at 35 minutes, I ssh'd him and he went right back to sleep)
3:50 Awake
4 Nurse
6:35 6oz Bottle + Nurse, then BT routine
7:05 Laid down
7:20 Asleep


He was maybe a tad UT at BT but only by 15 minutes or so. But I wanted him to completely fall asleep in his bed. I think your right, maybe he needs less daytime sleep. Yesterday he got just under 2.5 hrs daytime sleep and he slept about 11 hours last night. Which is a great improvement.

Sometimes he can go longer A times, up to 4 hours sometimes, with the right stimulation. Like yesterday morning, it was 3hrs 45 min. But mostly, 3hrs 15minutes is his preferred A time.

Do you really think we're approaching the 2-1 transition? I was reading about it the other day and it said not to rush into it but I don't want to miss it. I think I missed the 3-2 and that could be what started the short nights in the first place... (That and a freaking diaper brand that leaked more often than not. Took me 4 more brands/types to find one that would go all night again.)

When he started having 35 minute naps again I figured he was just OT but maybe it is a sign that he's close to the 2-1 transition??? Is there any way to tell the difference?

[firemom]

Also,

What does DD stand for? Dear Daughter?

[*Ali*]

Yes. Here are the other abbreviations you might come across on the site Site Acronyms/Abbreviations - What they are, and what they mean.

I think after 1hr he is probably in too deep a sleep to easily take the bottle so 10-15mins mite work better.

I don't think your DS is close to one nap. The 2-1 takes months of naps and nights gradually shortening before they move to one nap and a longer night again. I don't think you need to start capping naps or anything like that just know that nights will probably shorten a little before they they get longer again when he starts shortening one nap.

Glad to hear he STTN.

[firemom]

I am so glad he STTN! I hope there's a repeat performance tonight. I'm at work so Daddy's on duty.

We will definitely try giving him the bottle in that 10-15 minute time if he refuses the bottle again.

Good, I don't want to cap his naps. I hate that. It practically hurts to wake him up on purpose.

Thank you so much for all the help and advise.