Houston... we dont have a progress

[Sarah P]

Hey Tracy,
Its been a month since we started practicing self sleeping.
The little guy is all most 7 mounts old. according to the EASY quiz he came out with 9 A, 8 B, 2 C and 1 D.
the thing is that I am having trouble with his sleep. he goes to sleep by the windows or the minuet I notice the first yawn or ear pulling,
I do a little sleep ceremony and putting him in his crib.
it can take 2 min and it can take 40... sometimes its a real struggle...

he sleeps 30 min to an our tops. mostly 30
What am I missing?

Thank you,
Sarah

[becj86]

Hi, welcome to the forum

Could you tell us a little more about how long his A times are? Perhaps if you could write out the last day or two in this format:
E - 7
S - 10
E - 11:30
S - 2:30
etc.

Can you also give us an idea of how he's spending A time? Just generally, what is he doing?

That information will help us make suggestions as to how you can help your son sleep better.

[Sarah P]

Yes please!
Sunday:
E 06:00 60ml
S 06:50
A 7:35
Y 06:50

E 08:00
A 08:15
S in bed 09:30
    fell asleep 09:40 with my hand on his back
A 10:15
E 12:15 big lunch
S 12:30 in bed
    13:00 sleeping
A 14:00
E 16:15
S 16:30 in bed
    Calling me every minute
    16:50 sleeping with my hand on his back
A 17:15
     18:15 bath
E 18:30
S 18:40 in bed
    sleeping 19:10

Today
Woke up at 06:10

E 06:30
S 07:10
A 07:45
E 09:00
S 09:45 in bed
    10:00 sleeping
A 10:40
S 11:45 calld me non stop, crying
    Woke up for a change
     12:35 fell asleep with my hand
E 13:15
A13:45
S 14:20 crying a lot!
    14:45 sleeping
     Woke up at 15:15, put him back to bed over and over
     until 16:00 , he cryied a lot
A 16:15
E 16:45
A 18:00 bath
E 18:20
S 18:30 in bed
    18:45 sleeping

During the day we do tummy time and play
on the carpet,  some times we go to see my mom
for an hour or two, swimming lesson once a week, grocery shopping, and stroll in the afternoons.
He eats solids for breakfast,  lunch ang afternoon.

It is rare that he is crying, last 3 days stopped the bottle
of 03:00 , last bottle is at 23:30

[becj86]

Hi, so you have a textbook/angel baby who is not staying awake long enough to be tired enough for a restorative nap. His cues at this stage will be totally unreliable because he's so used to sleeping after so little A time. At this age, typical A time is more like 3hr-3:15 and being textbook/angel, I think you'll find he's around the average in terms of sleep needs though this doesn't always hold true.

So, what I'd suggest is one of two options:

1. Move straight to a 3hr A time, expect and resettle the OT nap wakings for the first few days, then tweak from there. Here's a basic outline of how your day would look (shift for WU, so if he wakes at 6:30, do nap at 9:30, not 9).
6 - wake, E
9 - S
10:30 - wake, E (of course let him sleep up to 2hr if he's still sleeping)
1:30 - S
3 - wake, E
6 - asleep in bed.

OR
2. Slowly increase your A time by 15min every few days until his naps extend to 1.5hr at least. This option is more gentle but runs the risk of getting LO into a loop of undertired/overtiredness and can make things very difficult - ie, if you're moving from 1:15 to 3hr A time in 15min increments, it will take at least 3 weeks by which time he will need another change. Most people who go this route end up chasing their tails for months.

Personally, I think when the routine is this far off what's required, I recommend just jumping to the new A time knowing there will be crying and screaming and OT 30min naps for a few days but that you'll get it resolved more quickly and LO will be better rested in the long run.

Just out of interest, how often is he waking at night?

[Sarah P]

first of all, thank you for the advice.
I must say that I think the last couple of days were hard BC he is teething... so he is a bit cranky...

today he woke up at 05:30, I gave him a bottle at 05:45 and put him back to sleep.
he woke up at 07:15, played a little and was tired again at 08:30 and fell asleep immediately!
woke at 09:00 and had breakfast at 09:15 and at 10:45 he started whining and pulling his ears so I put him to bed at 10:50
in his new bed, in his new room and he fell asleep after less then a minuet.

Im afraid that if I double his waking time he will be very cranky...
some times he can stay up for 2 - 2.5 hours but its only if we go some were and he has new things to see or do.

Do you still think I should longer it?

and another thing... a bit embarrassing...
I am not familiar with the short cuts OT, LO act. , would you be kind to explain them to me?
I am reading the books in Hebrew...

[becj86]

Can I confirm - he's 6.5 months old, born in December 2014? If so, yes I do still think that he needs significantly longer activity times. That will mean he gets longer naps which are restorative and will help him get better quality sleep.

Please don't feel embarrassed, your English is quite good and even people for whom English is their first language sometimes are unfamiliar with these abbreviations.
OT = overtired
LO = little one

Initially, he may well be quite cranky if you increase his A time. He will, though, get used to it pretty quickly and within a few days to a week, you should see his naps go to ~1.5-2hr in length. You are welcome to increase it slowly, but if you stay with such short A times as you have now, you will get into a nasty mess pretty soon in my experience.

If you get stuck with language, I think we have someone around who may be able to translate a bit of Hebrew for you.

[creations]

Hi there

Im afraid that if I double his waking time he will be very cranky...
some times he can stay up for 2 - 2.5 hours but its only if we go some were and he has new things to see or do.

This is the key really. If you can get out and about so he can extend his A times more easily then do that. If you can't get out then I suggest you prepare some new activities to do at home to help extend those times by keeping him busy. New activities could be anything, here are a few ideas:
- take him to a room you don't often spend much time in, the kitchen, the hall way, bathroom, and gather together some safe household items belonging to that room
[- bathroom - tooth brush, nail brush, sponge, empty (washed) shampoo bottle, do some water play in the bath with containers of water to pour from
- kitchen - pots and pans, wooden spoon, sieve, tea strainer, measuring spoons, plastic cups for stacking and un stacking, tubs of dry pasta or beans to pour from one pot to another
- bedroom - pull all your shoes out and let him explore them, talk about he colours, textures, patterns, pull out scarves or dresses for him to touch and look at
- every room in your home has new and exciting things for him to explore just don't leave him with chock hazards or delicate items or glass etc]
- read some books together, sing songs, put the radio on have a dance
- Tracy suggested in her book to do a fan dance to keep LO awake, do that if it comes to it

As you are concerned about such a big jump in time can I suggest something of a mid-way approach?
Go immediately to 2hr 30 (yes it is still double A time but you already know he can do this if entertained)
Stay there for 3 days
Then increase by 15 mins
Stay there 3 days
Then increase by 15 mins

This takes 1 week and results in a 3hr A time. By the time this week has passed your LO, I think, will be 7  months or close to.  At 6.5 - 7 months the guidance A time is 2hrs 45 - 3hrs 15
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

When you increase the A time, as bec said you may need to help extend the nap if he gets OT (over tired) his nap will be shorter but should be easier to get him back to sleep which will make the nap longer overall. It is also possible for the increased A time to very quickly lead to a longer nap which looks like success but after a few days it shortens again, this is normal and can indicate the need for another increase.
Either way, we will be here to hold your hand through the process.

I agree with bec that if A times are increased too slowly at this age you can be chasing them for many weeks.  The quicker you move to a more suitable routine the quicker your baby will adjust and start getting those longer naps.

I also want to mention, at this age he is much more alert than a younger baby. Sleepy signs such as yawning can indicate boredom and the need to change scene or activity, it isn't always the need for sleep. If you see those sleepy signs and the 2hr 30 is not up instead of taking him to bed take him to another room, turn him around, get out some toys or go for a short walk down around the garden or down the road - I suggest holding him and describing everything you see to him, rather than putting in a stroller where he may fall to sleep.

Here is a list of all the abbreviations you will find used on the site - do just ask if you don't know, but this may also help
Site Acronyms/Abbreviations - What they are, and what they mean.

hope this helps.

[Sarah P]

Thank you for your guidance and offering me translation to Hebrew, its OK, I can manage the English.. a bit of practising wont hurt... ;-)

My baby was born in 16/11/14 so he is turning 7 mounts tomorrow!!
I did as you suggested and I longer his A time. he is now awake for 3 -3 1/4 hours. we play, move through rooms in the house, when its not too hot we go outside.
this is the 4 day since I started. all so, I moved him to his own room on Friday (we spent the last couple of weeks adjusting to the room and the bad during the day. I must say he took it very nicely and like a little man!)
The morning nap is now 1.5 hours but I still need to put him back to sleep after 45 min. until today it was only with my help with my hand on him and shshshshs.
at noon its a little bit harder.. he wakes up after 30-45 min and having trouble going back to sleep. even after his swimming lesson!!
yesterday it took 40 min of crying, today only 5.. so I hope that we are on the right track!
still, we are having a problem at 04:00.
as I told you, I stoped the bottle feeding of 03:00 - 04:00 last week, about 8 or 9 days ago.
he is still waking up at 04:00 and asking for a bottle. until now it took him 40 min to an hour to go back to sleep and a little crying. last night is was impossible...
he was crying a lot and couldn't go back to sleep up until 06:00 when I fed him as I always do. I felt so bad that may be he was really hungry...
souled it take so long to adjust to it? can I do some thing to mane it easier for him?

thanks again and have a good week! 

[creations]

Sounds like you did great increasing those A times!!

The morning nap is now 1.5 hours but I still need to put him back to sleep after 45 min. until today it was only with my help with my hand on him and shshshshs.

You say "until today" does this mean he stayed asleep on his own today or you are still helping him at 45 mins?

at noon its a little bit harder.. he wakes up after 30-45 min and having trouble going back to sleep. even after his swimming lesson!!

What is his mood like when you are putting him down for his nap and when he wakes from it at 30-45 min?

as I told you, I stoped the bottle feeding of 03:00 - 04:00 last week, about 8 or 9 days ago.
he is still waking up at 04:00 and asking for a bottle. until now it took him 40 min to an hour to go back to sleep and a little crying. last night is was impossible...
he was crying a lot and couldn't go back to sleep up until 06:00 when I fed him as I always do.

Well, I suppose it is possible he was hungry, but I would have thought after 8 or 9 days he would be coping better than this. Do you think he may be teething and was in pain?
You could make it easier for him by continuing the night feed, or by a gentle wean if you want to bring back that night bottle?

[Sarah P]

well... the 3 hours A time is doing good,
the rest is changing every day...

That day when I said "until today" , he did stay asleep on his own! today all so in the morning and at late noon!! (I will explain later)
If he wakes up after 30 - 45 min he is always alert, joy full and ready to play, even if its less then that, he is never cranky when he wakes up 
he is smiling, kicking and waving his arms, looks at me like "what are you waiting for?? get me out and lets do stuff!"
lately he even got a cute sound that its like he is saying "are you sure? sleep? no play? naaaa... "

with the night feed... I didnt quite understand what you said... but I gave up this battle for now...
I tyred putting him back to sleep, I tyred giving him water, I tyred DF... he wakes up at 03:00 - 04:00 crying.. and I promised him, when he was about 1 month old, that I will never deprive food from him. never the less, I believe in flow... if things are not flowing then its not the right way..
may be he is still to young and needs it for food or for comfort - it doesn't matter. I prefer to wake up at night and putting my baby to sleep when he is calm and happy then to see him suffer like he does. if it wasn't so necessary to him, he would let it go like every thing else like going to sleep in bed and not in my arms, moving to his own room and to a new bed and even the increasing of the A time was like "a walk in the park".
I dont know for sure if he was in pain or not, I dont think he was bc in the beginning, for 1/2 an hour, he stoped when we went out of the room and started again when we came back.
the next 1.5 hours he cryed all most constantly but no other signs. the minuet he got the bottle he calmed down. when he is in pain he doesnt eat.
The thing is, one of the Sleep Advisor here told me that I can not teach him to fall asleep on his own if I continue giving him a bottle at night... is it??

Any way, I think I solved the puzzle.
I thought that the 3 h gap between the morning nap and noon is too close. and honestly, its better for the two of us if he will continue the night sleep at 06:30 to 07:30 - 08:30
bc he wakes up at 05:45 - 06:00 , eat, play with daddy in bed or the living room and gets tired and cranky after an hour or so and not willing to do any thing.
we eat breakfast at 09:00, play or going out to do stuff, he naps 30 -45 min around 11:30 and than going for 1-1.5 h nap at 14:30 and can stay up to 18:30 - 19:00 when he goes to bed.
We tried it today and it was very easy on us! no battle, no crying, we both ate and slept well (I never got a decent sleep at noon bc he used to wake up after 30 min) and I wasnt feeling like I am headless chicken with a watch.

What do you think? will it work?

[creations]

I prefer to wake up at night and putting my baby to sleep when he is calm and happy then to see him suffer like he does. if it wasn't so necessary to him, he would let it go like every thing else

Yes I agree.  It's basically what I was saying (the part you didn't understand, sorry I wasn't clear), if he was able to drop that feed he would have done so in those 8 or 9 days when you were not giving the feed, like you've said he has adapted well to everything else.
At around 7 months, those who have been giving a DF would be looking at dropping that feed, some will wait until 8 or even 9 months.  I know you aren't giving the DF but instead giving a NF when he wakes for it, which is fine.  You might decide to try a gentle wean either now or in a few weeks.  This is a much gentler approach than dropping cold turkey and it sounds like it would suit you better. (I always go for the gentlest option available, I am more of a gentle wean person than a cold turkey person wherever possible).  I can help guide you with this if you like?

The thing is, one of the Sleep Advisor here told me that I can not teach him to fall asleep on his own if I continue giving him a bottle at night... is it??

Not strictly but I don't know the context in which is was said so can't really comment.  Babies can certainly fall to sleep on their own even with the need to feed at night, I think the BW books are full of examples of young babies sleeping independently with a DF (so they are still eating at night), the difference is if your baby cannot self settle and is reliant upon the bottle as a prop to sleep rather than hunger.  Babies can also set up habits for different parts of the day/night so he can fall to sleep independently for naps and BT but still be reliant on a bottle prop in the night. It would be clearer if for instance your baby was 10 or 12 months old and heavily reliant on night feeds to be able to sleep, or if a 7 month old was waking every 2 hrs and needing a bottle to get to sleep. Sometimes it is clear, other times it is not so clear.

Not sure I understand your suggested routine, is it that you want him to do a long first nap then a CN then a long second nap?
So:
WU 6.00
A 1hr
S 7 - 8.30
A 3hr
S 11.30 - 12.00
A 2hr 30
S 2.30 - 4.00
A 2hr 30 - 3hr
BT 7.00

Is this right?

[Sarah P]

Yes!! I would very much like for your guidance!
the only one I hear is going cold turkey... and I think it can be a bit hard on babies...

my routine is going with 3 hours A time but give or take 1/2 an hour with the rest.
every day is some thing else and a different mood... its hard for us to go by the clock...

[creations]

OK for a gradual wean of the night feed you would decrease the bottle by 1oz the first night, stay at that for 2 -3 days then reduce by a further 1oz, stay at that for another 2-3 days and continue until the feed is gone.  Some further guidance during that process:
- if he drains the bottle and fusses for more he may be satisfied with a little water after his bottle (take a bottle of water with you for the feed as back up). If however he cries hard for that 1oz then I would consider him not ready to reduce just yet, try again in a few weeks to a month.
- if he does not drain the bottle see how much he took, use that as your guide the following night (ie reduce the next night to the amount he took the previous night, this is the new 'maximum' and you will hold for 2 days then reduce by 1oz again from here)
- when you are offering only 1oz at that feed, stay at that for 2 days or so then stop.  During this last part he may stop waking for the feed. If he continues to wake then on night reduce by 1 more oz meaning you offer water.  If after this night he continues to wake it this time use a method to resettle or avoid the habitual WU, eg W2S or shush/pat to help him stay asleep (you can get support with this if needed)
- day time calories will likely increase but may not increase immediately. It may take a few days or a week for him to realise he needs to eat more in the day. He will either increase a milk feed (if he is draining bottles in the day increase so there is always an oz left, this way you know he is eating to his fill) or may increase his solids.  Don't worry about him not increasing immediately babies can last well with a little less during other times (such as teething) and will make up the calories when they are ready.  If he cannot manage this wean he is going to let you know in the night (the first point of the list).

If you have any questions or are not sure about any part of this do ask
This method will likely wean the NF in the space of about 10 days. It is slower than going cold turkey but in my view easier on baby and mum and still doesn't take long at all.

[Sarah P]

Thank you so much!
it does sounds very gentle!

one thing I didnt understand...

If after this night he continues to wake it this time use a method to resettle or avoid the habitual WU, eg W2S or shush/pat to help him stay asleep (you can get support with this if needed)

should I start now or wait a bit?

and another Q.. when he wakes up during day sleep after 45 min, fully awake and strongly refuses going back to sleep... what do I do?

[creations]

Sorry to have not fully explained.

After the night feed is totally dropped (after the gradual wean is finished) he may continued to wake up at that time in the night.  Some don't, they just stop waking for the bottle before the gradual wean is finished.  Some do continue to wake up, this will be called an 'habitual waking' because he will be waking from habit and not from hunger. You will know it's not hunger because the gradual wean gives you the opportunity to see that he is very happy to reduce and drop the milk aspect of this waking, if he is not happy you will know about it, he will kick up a big fuss to get the milk.
So with an habitual waking you will need to teach him not to wake up.  There are 2 or 3 things you can do:
1. shush/pat him back to sleep. He stays in the cot (unless he cries enough to need picking up) and you gently sooth him to sleep.
2. you catch him beginning to stir at that habitual time and rather than letting him fully wake you shush/pat him back to sleep before he cries/calls out. This is one of the W2S (wake to sleep) methods and is basically what you did during the nap transition at 45 mins, you shushed him through the transition for several days and then he was able to transition without your help. This is the same method for the night time habitual waking.
3. you use the other method of W2S which is to gentle stroke or move his blanket or something like that enough to slightly disturb him whilst he is sleeping, around 10-20 mins before the habitual WU. You do not disturb him so much he fully wakes, but enough for him to take a deeper breath or a slight fidget. This indicates a new sleep cycle is starting and he should then sleep through the habitual time. (if he does fully wake you will need to ttend to him in whatever way to get him back to sleep, shush/pat, pick up if needed)
The W2S methods are described here:
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

If you feel ready to begin the bottle wean you can start any time.  If you feel at any time he really needs that full bottle of milk in the night then you can hold off and try again in a few weeks. There is no rule here, do what you are comfortable with and what you see your LO responds to.

and another Q.. when he wakes up during day sleep after 45 min, fully awake and strongly refuses going back to sleep... what do I do?

As he had started to sleep longer naps I would
- begin W2S again, go to his room to prepare yourself to shush pat at about 35-40 mins to see him through the transition
- look again at his routine. He may need an extended A time. Looking at the times you had a few days back it looked like not all the A times were as long as the guided times. At 7 months the guidance is 3hrs to 3hrs 15. If you do not increase the A time your LO will be UT (undertired) and unable to transition at the 45 min mark and will also be impossible to settle back to sleep even with your help.

When you get a 45 min nap and he refuses to go back to sleep I would just get him up, begin your A time. See if he can get close to when his E time should have been (feed a little earlier if needed, he may be hungry sooner due to being awake) before feeding. Give him almost a full A time before the next nap. So 3hrs.

Hope this helps