5 month old with sleep trouble

[Bella89]

Hi All,
I hope someone can help me a little with our sleep issues. Although, our baby boy sleeps more or less regularly, I know there is still something we can do to help him sleep better.
My main issues are:
1. I breastfeed him at 3.00 am and 6 am. I tried to avoid 6am feeding but he wouldn't just go to sleep then. That is a problem because he wants to just skip 7.30 feeding and eat before his first nap (which makes sense, but I don't know how to fix it).
2. Pacifier. I have no idea if he is addicted or not.If its the right time to take it away. He only uses it to fall asleep for 5 min. Then he spits it out and sleeps ok. He cries a lot when I try to put him to sleep without it.
3. Most of our wakings are because he rolls over on his tummy and wakes up because of it. When I put him for NS I have to turn him on his back 5-10 times.

Our EASY:
7.00 am wakes up, sometimes early 5 or 6 and feeding is the only thing that will put him to sleep (or so I think)
E 7.30 but sometimes even doesn't want to eat, because of early breastfeeding and eats at 9 instead
A 8-9.00
S 9.00-11.30  or 12.00
E 12.00
A 12.20-3.00 pm
S 3pm- 4.30 pm
E 5pm
A 5.20-6.30
S 6.30 - 7.15
E 7.15 and sometimes 8.30
A 7.30-9.00
S 9.00-3am
E 3am in his sleep but empties both breasts
E 6 am

I do not feed him in his sleep at 22 or 23, because when I tried to do that a while ago (lasted a week) he would wake up at night every 2 hours. It was worse so I dropped it.

It's a little messy, I know. But I would really appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks

[creations]

Hi there and welcome to BW forums
Sorry you didn't get any replies yet.
1. Have you tried perhaps a smaller feed at 6am so that he is more inclined to take a feed at 7/7.30?  Otherwise I would just focus on not feeding to sleep at 9am, just a minute or two A time after the feed try to put him down drowsy but awake.

2. It sounds like the paci helps him and it is not causing problems with repeated re-plugging all night so I'd prob leave it for now.

3. You said most of his wakings were due to him rolling over and needing to be turned back. This is quite a common thing when LOs learn to roll, as they process their new skills during dream time they can end up rolling (and later standing) and find themselves stuck.  This often resolves within a short time so may not even be an issue for you any more. Is it still happening?

Your nap lengths look good, is he disturbed by rolling during the naps and night or just night?

[Bella89]

Thank you for your advice.
Yes, rolling over hardly ever happens now. He stil tries to, but just leaves at his side instead and sleeps like that. When it happens its mostly when he tries to fall asleep for his NS.
Our day got better when we transitioned from 3-2, althought there are still days when he sleeps 3.
The nights... my oh my.
Latest EASY:
WU 7.30-8
E 8 still not too much, but more than before.
A 8.20-10.30
S 10.30-12.30
E 12.45
A 1-2.45
S 2.45- 4.30
E 4.30 here he eats the most and at 7.
A 5-7.30 but falls asleep 8-8.30
NW 11pm, 2am, 4.30, at 6 he wakes up and falls asleep again at 7.
I think I did some AP here, because around 5 I take him to our bed when he doesnt want to sleep.

When is the time when baby can sleep through the night without NF. I feel like he needs to eat at 2 and 5. Rest is probably my AP which I will work on now. I will try to limit feeding at 6 to get a beeter breakfast:)
Thank you again, will keep you posted

[creations]

When is the time when baby can sleep through the night without NF.

Not for a while I'm afraid. Are you BF or FF? It seems to make a difference, with FF babies able to go longer in the night and BF babies needing NFs for longer (which also stimulates supply).
However sleeping through the night is classed as around 5 hrs. You already get 7hrs between the 7pm feed and the 2am feed although this doesn't feel like a decent chunk of time for you because there are NWs between.

I would aim to get him into bed much earlier.
4.30pm - 8/8.30pm A time is way too long for his age and he is likely OT even though he is getting good day naps, he can get OT just in that last A time which will then cause NWs.
I'd look to get him into bed for 6.30pm and see how it goes for a few days. What do you think?

You might also try feeding at the 11pm ish NW as this may give you 7 hrs from E to E for that one over night stretch. I imagine it would feel very different to you to have from 11pm - 6am solid sleep...or even 11pm to 4.30am!

[Bella89]

He is BF.

Today he woke up at 4 from his second nap. Got him to bed at 7, fell asleep at 7.30. I will start earlier tomorrow.

Yes, he can do 7h with no problem. But that depends on a day..
My only concern is, if he goes to bed at 6-6.30 could that make him start a day st 5 for example? Well, we will se I guess. You are right 4 hours is too long.

Its 11pm, going to feed him now. i will let you know:)

Thank you so much for all your advice. Your help is priceless!

[creations]

OK, if he BFs then 2 night feeds are totally normal.  I'd look for one with a long stretch of sleep and the other around 3-4 hrs from his previous feed.  So either (just guidance):
6pm, 10pm, 5am
or
6pm, 1am, 5am
You'd be treating the 5am feed as a night feed, dark room, whispers etc. And Feed again on WU.

Did you recently transition from 3 to 3 naps? I got the impression you did as you mentioned it in your previous post. If so then a longer night could be one the cards for a short time.  Yes going to bed early can lead to an earlier WU if LO is fully rested but it also helps to avoid that OT creeping in before BT. It can also lead to a quieter night and almost the same WU (not early). The only other way to tweak the routine to avoid that long A before bed is to push the other A times so his naps are more evenly spaced across the day, for instance on that second A time which is currently shorter, this could be extended to bring the second nap later and reduce the A time BT.
During transitions phases routines do go a little off and LO takes a little time to adapt to the new routine. The hope would be to reduce the NWs down to just those two where you feed (either dream feed or awake feed).

[Bella89]

So I fed him at 11 and it didn't change a thing really. He woke up at 1.45, 4.20, 5.30, 6.30 and 7.30. Do you think I should continue for few days to see how it goes?

Also, we went from poop every 4 days to every day. I wonder why that is btw. He wakes for it in the morning 4 or 5 and needs a diaper change right away. I always feed him with lights of, but need to turn on the light for diper change. That wakes him up for and hour.

 I think he needs his feed at 2 and 5. Will try to eliminate that 4 am one. I will try shh/pat and giving him paci instead. I didnt take him to our bed today, so one success at a time:)

Yes, he has 2 naps most of the time. Sometimes, like today, he had a 40 min at 5 because he seemed really tired, probably would not make it to 6. After that I put him down at 8 (A of 2h 20min).Now that I think about it NW started when we transitioned to 2 naps. You are right, he probably was OT, I will give him more time to fully transition.

[creations]

Hard to judge anything on one day.  I think you know what you're trying to do so keep at it and see how things settle.
Will be here when you update

[Bella89]

So I wanted to ask for advice after a week of feeding at 11 pm in my DS's sleep. It didn't require any decision really because when I started to put him to his NS he started waking on his own.

What changed:
He sleeps better at night, more peacefully I would say.
Our Easy:
E 7:30 (he def has better breakfasts, but still this is the worst feeding during the day)
A 7:50-9:30
S 9:30-10:30
E 11
A 11:30-1:30
S 1:30 : 3:30
E 3:30
A 3:45-6:30
NS 7
NF 11, 3, 5 These are the best feedings.

I start the NS routine at 6:30, at 7:30 he is always asleep.
It is impossible to stretch these two first A times. He is so fussy and cries a lot. I am trying to do that 5 min at a time.
But now I can't stretch naps as well, he suddenly started napping for 45-1h only. Very often we go back to 3 naps. And we're doing 3h easy more now. It depends on a day.
Night is better but now day is a problem.
One step further, 3 steps back...

[creations]

Good to hear the night sleep seems improved

Although it seems impossible to stretch the first A time, i would really recommend you push forward with this. Increasing by 5 min increments is likely too little at a time for him. If the increase is not enough LO just fusses because they are in the habit of going for a nap at a certain time and the little increase doesn't allow for them to get tired enough to extend the nap. The 5 min increments are likely just frustrating him.
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
You'd be looking at a guidance time of 2hr 30 to 3hrs now.  Whilst we do generally advice to go in increments if you go too slowly it can just add to the problem.  I'd suggest increasing to 2hr 15 immediately and in 2 days increase to 2hr 30. 2 days later you may need to increase to 2hr 45.  When A times are too short the nap shortens, is hard or impossible to extend the nap and the result is LO gets OT due to short naps.
It looks like the first A time is short at just 2hrs, the second A time is ok at 3hrs and the last A time could be on the long side at 4hrs.

(I'm assuming there is a BT feed around 6.30pm. You might be able to wean that 5am feed, what do you think? It would mean feeds at 11, 3 and WU at 7/7.30)

[Bella89]

Oh yes, I missed that 6:30 feeding.

You are right, I will try to spread these A times more evenly. Starting tomorrow, I will try to go from 2h to 2:15, then 2:30 and 2:45. I will see what will happen:) (today was a little odd, he had 3,5h nap in the afternoon, now went to bed at 6:15, I don't know if I should treat it like a NS or wake him up once before?)

Yes, I will try to skip that 5am feeding. It seems like it just messes his breakfast. I see that now. Thank you.

I will keep you posted:)

[creations]

Hope it goes smoothly

[Bella89]

So I am still pushing A time and it got extended depending on the time. Still working on improving things, but this is what we have:
5:30 EW after 3 days today was the first i managed to put my DS back to sleep with paci so he woke up at 7:20. Hope tomorrow will be the same
7:20 WU
E 730 still not a good feeding
A 740-10
S 10-1220 long nap
E1230 good feeding
S today I started a routine at 3, but he fell asleep at 4 cried a lot, was rolling over to his tummy, could not hold his paci in because of the crying, I was trying to hold him vertically and talk calmly. At one point I didnt know what I was doing-paci, PUPD or what. He slept for 35 min, woke up and yawn for next 20 min, but would not fall asleep.
E 530 thats a good feeding
A 545-730
NS 730
I was feeding him in his sleep at 11 and now he wakes up for it:/ I feed him at 230 and 5.

I am a little worried about his day naps:/
What should I do?

I am thinking:
Not to exceed 3h, because he gets OT although he seems not needing afternoon nap which is not possible at this age:/
Start to wake him after 2h morning nap.
Push 2 night feeds so ultimately the one at 2 will be at 3 where it was, and the one at 5 will happen at 7 (breakfast)
What to do with that 11pm feeding? Could he learn that already, after a week?

Ehh, if I fix something, the other breaks:/ I am questioning everything now, paci, my before sleep routine:(

[creations]

OK, it looks like his second nap was good after a 3hr A time when he only had a shorter (1hr) first nap...now that the first nap has extended to 2hrs+ he is not ready to sleep at the 3hr mark for nap 2.  try increasing the second A time 15 mins.  It looks like the crying at 3pm was resistance for the nap due to UT.
If you find both naps extend and your day getting too long you could cap the nap at 2hr or 1.5hr but you don't have to do this immediately, only if the second nap goes long and Bt ends up too late.

I was feeding him in his sleep at 11 and now he wakes up for it:/

Try a different time, say 10.30, you could catch him in a different part of his sleep cycle and feed before he wakes.  However if he continues to wake for the DF I wouldn't worry. Mine always woke for it and I just put him back to bed straight after, I still got his longest part of the night following that feed so it was still useful for me.

[Bella89]

Hi,
I just wanted to let you know that we are doing really good now:)
My DS sleeps well during the day and night. He not always makes 2,5h A times, but I think I know what he needs more. Sometimes he can go 3h and sometimes only 2:/ He has been really sleepy these past 2 days. I dont know if its the teething... i thought it has the opposite effect, but I don't know what other reason could be.
So our EASY is
E 700
A 720 930
S 930 1100
E 1100
A 1120 1330
S 1330 1500
E 1500
A1520 1720
S1720 1800
E1800
A1800 1930
So as you can see, we had to add that 40 min cat nap before NS, he is doing better with it. Sleeps better at night. i am doing 11 pm feeding and one at 3. I think he wasnt ready for only only 2 naps.
Thanks again for your help:)