Nap nightmares!

[Jennafrappafrubalacca]

Hi everyone.

My baby is 3 months old and is on a 3-4hrly E.A.S.Y routine. He goes down at night after his bedtime routine like dream and usually babbles for 20mins before sending himself to sleep. When he wakes for a feed in the night he goes straight back down and does a similar thing without any crying. We have always put him down awake and I think this is how he has managed to self settle so well at night. He's never had a dummy and we occasionally use a bit of white noise/lullaby but I don't feel he needs it to go to sleep as it'll often turn itself off whilst he's still awake with no fussing.

Daytime naps are however a complete nightmare. He SCREAMS when I put him down in the cot without fail. I wait for sleep cues and put him down awake with the blind down, I try shush pat which doesn't work then I can sometimes shush pat him in my arms but when I go to put him down he kicks off again. I've tried swaddling but he's never really been swaddled and it has no effect. I do a wind down which doesn't work either as he usually just starts crying (does he realise a nap is on the cards?!). This never used to be an issue as he used to fuss for 5-10 mins but self settle but that now seems like a distant memory! He has also started waking after 45 mins so I want to try wake to sleep but first need to get him to sleep!!

I often end up leaving the room crying or screaming in to a pillow at my wits end! He doesn't STTN so I'm constantly tired and NEED him to nap a bit in the day for both of our sanity! I hate seeing him get so upset but equally I know how important naps are and how miserable he'll be if he doesn't sleep.

Please please help me, I don't know where I'm going wrong

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

Oh dear, you sound like you're at your wits end with those naps.
The good news is that it's likely he just needs an A time increase, his resistance to naps (yes he does know a nap is on the cards and he's trying to tell you he isn't quite ready for one yet) and his 45 min naps are both signs that he is UT (under tired).
The other good news is that as he was previously an independent sleeper and self settled it likely won't take very much to get that back.
The other (possibly less good) news is that this could be the 4 month regression come a bit early (mine was 3.5 months) which is a prime time for LOs naps to go off track for a while, you are not alone in this being a difficult phase.  But they do come out the other side!

As you seem to already know your routine you might be able to work this out yourself, here's the guidance A time for age,  but it is just guidance, if he's on too low an A time you can start right away to increase (15 mins, hold there a few days then increase again if needed), if he's already at the upper end of A times he might like long A times (mine did, especially the first A time of the day).
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
If you are unsure you can post your EASY times (the real times of what happens in a day rather than what you hope for) and we can have a look to see what might be changed.

If he's never been swaddled, never had a dummy and never had a long wind down I wouldn't introduce any of those now. Sounds like he is great at self settling but just needs to get his routine back on track.

He is probably also becoming more aware of his surroundings and sleepy signs might not be as reliable as they were before. He may need a different activity rather than being put to nap.  You can move to a different room or show him a different toy/object for a few more minutes to help fill the additional A time.

As you are so tired, it might also be time to call in back up if you have any on offer.  Is there a friend or relative who could mind him during the A time so you can rest then, and you can take over when the harder part of putting him down to nap comes?

Stay strong, you didn't do anything wrong, it gets hard for all of us at one time or another.

[Jennafrappafrubalacca]

Thank you so much for your very prompt reply - its so very VERY much appreciated and I'm pleased it has plenty of positives in it!!

I'm going to write down EXACTLY what happens with our E.AS.Y tomorrow including how each nap goes and will post tomorrow evening so please check back as it may help to shed a little light on what's going on!

Thank you again for your encouraging words and helpful advice, it means a lot to me at a time when I'm really struggling with motherhood 

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Oh honey - we all struggle with motherhood you know - honestly we do!

As you're new here I'll just let you know that we are all volunteers, not experts, just mums like you. We do our very best to respond to posts in a reasonable amount of time (usually within 24hrs) but some times it can be a bit longer, especially if our LOs are poorly or other things in life crop up.
I will certainly get back to you to take a look at your EASY, but do please be patient if I am unable to get back tomorrow evening, I have guests over tomorrow, it's more likely I will be able to read your EASY the day after you post it.

Hang in there though, you have found just the place for support   And I mean it, do call in back up if there is anyone who can entertain your LO for even an hour, now really is the time to ask for help.  you might not get a sleep but perhaps a lie down in a dark room, or a breath of fresh air or even an undisturbed shower.  Do ask, people usually like to help x
(you can take a really deep breath now)

[Jennafrappafrubalacca]

Of course reply when/if you can and you're free we have struggled with naps for a little while now so I'm unfortunately used to the daily struggle but I will try and heed your advice and call in the cavalry! In the meantime I can re-read your posts/other posts for a bit of moral support!  I already feel more positive!

I wish I'd found this forum sooner!

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I wish I'd found this forum sooner!

We all wish that!!
Mine was about 4 months old when someone kindly directed me here...and I've been here ever since, almost every day for over 4 years!

[Jennafrappafrubalacca]

Soon this is the last 24hrs:

19:00 - Feed 150mls
19:30 - Bath/bedtime routine and bed (babbles for 20mins then sleep)
23:00 - DF 170mls
04:00 - Feed 110mls
07:15 - Feed 170mls (we woke him for this)
08:15 - 11:00 - Nap (OMG) - Fussy for a few mins but VERY sleepy so went down quickly
11:00 - Feed 170mls
12:50 - 13:40 - Nap - extended his awake time and saw his eyes get heavy. Went down easily but woke early!
15:00 - Feed 180mls
16:00 - 16:45 - Nap - Fell asleep at end of 15:00 feed but then woke again when I tried to put him down and took 30mins fussing before he fell asleep then woke early again!


Today was actually an OK day - he tends to not usually have a brilliant morning nap so that might be the cause of the shorter naps later on?

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What a long morning nap!!!
OK, so perhaps this was not the best day to judge his routine on if he doesn't usually have such a long morning nap.  However it does give us a starting point

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
The average A time for a 3 month old is 1hr 20 - 1hr 30
And for a 4 month old 1hr 45 - 2hrs
Do you see how the A time rapidly increases in that short space of time from 1hr 20 to 2hrs?  That's the thing that can catch many of us out.  It will make a difference if your LO is closer to 4 months than 3 months and also on their individual needs (mine always needed an A time of an older baby).
I would say that after such a long nap (2hr 45 is long!) he probably needed a longer A time even though you gave him 1hr 50.
Does he usually have a short first A time?  On this particular day it looks almost like an extension of his night sleep with you waking him for a NF rather than him being up for the day.
Has he just had his vaccinations? (just wondering if this is why he had a very sleepy  night and first nap)

I know your LO usually self settles, is there anything you do or can do to help sooth him when he finds it difficult to sleep? What do you usually do? Hold in arms? Rock?  I saw he didn't like shush/pat, it's ok to adapt that if you know what works for you, maybe a rub rather than a pat perhaps? Do you sing? Whisper? have a key phrase?
The thing is that although he is an independent sleeper there are going to be so many times in his infancy and toddler-hood when he needs some extra support it is really worth while to have a method of some sort which you can use to show him you are there with him even if it does not stop him crying. Do you have something like this?

For now, if you find he begins to fuss as you do the nap time wind down (which doesn’t need to be longer or different from what you've always done) I suggest just saying to him "Oh looks like you're not ready for a nap yet, let's do something less then" and take him back out of the room. Spend 10-15 mins doing something like looking out of the window talking about what you see, or sit down with a little picture book to point out pictures or something like that and then try him again for the nap.
This way he is listened to (his fussing seems to be communication he is not ready to sleep) and hopefully less stressful for you because you don't spend all that time with him crying and refusing.

Let me know how it goes and please continue to record your EAS times. Although EASY is not a strictly timed schedule, times are one of the few things we can actually look at to help you.

[Jennafrappafrubalacca]

So sorry for such a delayed reply - its been a bit of a chaotic week! Thank you so much for taking the time to reply with your brilliant advice! I've not recorded our EASY as we've been out and about a lot so will try to record some on the days we aren't up to much.

He always struggles to stay awake after his 7am feed so I think you're quite right in thinking that might be why he has such a long morning nap! It may be because for a while we used to put him back to bed after his first morning feed and he'd usually sleep until around 09:00. Any ideas on how I can extend his A time in the morning? No he only had his jabs today so we'll see how that affects him!

He seems to settle to shush/pat for my husband in the night but not for me in the day but I've no idea why! He likes to be held over my shoulder and often like to be patted in that position but when I try it lying down he gets too upset to be able to focus on it.

I've extended his A time and waited until he gets really drowsy which does seem to help with the fussiness. I've noticed he virtually doesn't nap at all after his 15:00 feed and this is an emerging problem Ashe becomes ridiculously tired by about 17:00-17:30 and becomes inconsolable and I often end up upset as my husband isn't home to take over for a further hour! My dad suggested it might be because his morning nap is too long and causing him to not need a nap later in the day, do you think he might be right? Until I can extend his AM A time I'm a bit stuck though as obviously ideally I'd like him to nap until his 11:00 feed!

Thank you again!

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It's quite hard without seeing your EASY but based on what I know I'd guess that your LO is enjoying a shorter first A time. This is not unheard of and I wouldn't consider it a problem so long as we can get the rest of the day on track.  The time when a short first A *is* a problem is when it produces a short nap, as this doesn't seem to be the case then I'd go with what you are currently doing.  Maybe try to keep him up for 1hr 15 rather than just 1hr if you think he can.

Following the first nap though I do think a longer A is needed. Not all A times need to be equal, what we are looking for is a time that suits him to produce a good nap.  If he is reluctant to CN after the 3pm feed then that second nap is even more important to sleep well.
This is a very rough guide, see what you think
WU 7
A 1- 1hr 15
S 8.15 - 10.15 (I'd probably cap for a while to see if it helps)
A 2hrs+
S 12.30 - 2 (or even later depending what A you've been offering, can it go up again now, 2hr 15? 2hr 30?)
A 2hrs
S 4 - 5 (or 4.15 to 5 say)
A 2hr
BT 7.00

Are you often out in the day? If so it might be worth trying to figure out a suitable EASY around your out and about times.

[Jennafrappafrubalacca]

Thanks for the reply; does it matter if he doesn't nap at all after the 3pm feed if he's had 2 long naps earlier in the day?

Your EASY for today is roughly:

07:30 - E
07:30 - 09:30 - A
09:30 - 11:30 - S (He had his jabs halfway through this but quickly fell asleep again)
12:00 - E
12:00 - 13:45 - A
13:45 - 15:15 - S
15:15 - E

It's now 16:30 and he's completely wired so we'll see if he manages to nap but I somehow doubt it! He slept quite well today and I had to wake him for his feeds both times. He also managed a better awake time this morning but I'm not sure why! I'll update/edit this post later once he's ?napped but just wanted to get it down before I forget!

[Jennafrappafrubalacca]

I also forgot to mention that he managed a catnap twice at my parents on a play mat as he doesn't have a cot there so I'm wondering if his evening/afternoon nap should be on the play mat or in the bouncer rather than in his cot? Or is that a bad habit to get in to?

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That looks like a great day.

I wouldn't worry about props or habits where he sleeps (mat or cot) for the last CN of the day.  LOs tend to make habits for each individual nap, if you have an independent sleeper and then APOP a CN at the end of the day for a while it won't be a disaster as that nap will be the first to be dropped.

does it matter if he doesn't nap at all after the 3pm feed if he's had 2 long naps earlier in the day?

The problem with no sleep after 3pm is that it is a long long time to wait until BT.  If BT is usually 7.30pm then there is 4.5hrs between waking from a nap and going to sleep again.  For a LO who can only do 2hrs ish A time this is way too long.  You'd need to put him to bed for the night around 5pm which is not totally unheard of but at this age I'd probably prefer to try for a CN (even in arms) rather than such an early BT and expect such a long night.
If he is resistant to third nap though it is ok for it to come later (when he is more tired), just make sure there is enough A time to BT after it. EG:
2nd nap ends 3.15pm
A 2hr
CN 5.15 - 6.00 (cap the nap at 45 mins)
A 1.5 (sometimes LOs are fine with a shorter A time between a CN and BT because they only had a CN rather than a full nap so are not fully rested)
BT 7.30

[Jennafrappafrubalacca]

Hi again!

I've been having slightly more success with the PM catnap by letting him fall asleep on his play mat but his daytime naps are getting worse! He's waking up after only 30mins (not even a full cycle!) and screaming and won't settle off again. I'm literally at the end of my tether as he just doesn't sleep long enough for me to get anything done and I don't know what else to do!

I've extended his A time first thing and he goes down better with less fuss but is waking up earlier! He wakes up very suddenly too with a scream/shout which is new.... Any thoughts on why he's started doing this?


 

[creations]

Can you post your EASY times please.

It may be that he needed the A increase but is now a little OT for the nap and may need help for a few days. Can you go in and do a W2S or hold through the jolts at the 30 min mark to sooth him through the transition of light sleep before he fully wakes?

Is he 4 months yet?