Never stopping arms - do I keep 'restraining' him?

[mulvia]

I have seen the post on weaning from the swaddle and I would like your opinion on this - we have been swaddling successfully, however LO has learned to roll over and we have stopped. Also, he likes to have his hands free, so we just kind of tuck in the blanket under his arms from the top so he can get them out when he wakes. My question is, most of the times in order for him to go to sleep we have to phisically keep his arms down, otherwise he will flap them around, scratch the sides of the bed or his face, rub his eyes, pull the dummy out, what have you, and this of course prevents him from settling. Most time he WANTS to go to sleep and seems very annoyed at his arms, but the poor thing can't help moving them. Is it okay to keep his arms still until he quietens enough (I guess at some point he will be coordinated enough to stop) or would it be better trying a different approach? Tanks for any ideas!!

[creations]

I only swaddled for the first 10 wks and only for naps.  Occasionally I'd swaddle if my LO was having a hard time to calm down but that was in my arms rather than in the cot then I'd take it off for him to sleep.  Obviously from my own experience I feel it is totally possible for LOs to learn to sleep without the swaddle, although it's ever so comforting and cosy to be swaddled.
The thing you describe with his arms sounds just like my DS's self soothing, he holds a muslin and flips it around, rubs it on his face, flips again, looks like flailing arms and muslin all in one and he generally looks 'bothered' but it's just what many LOs do with their lovies, it's like they can't be still until they are asleep.
This doesn't really answer your question but I thought it might help to know that this can be a self soothing thing and my DS still does this at almost 5yo.

[trimbler]

Hi there and welcome to BW Quick question - how old is your LO?

[mulvia]

Hello and thank you! My DS is turning 6 months next week. I did think it was self soothing but the thing is that he seems to get more and more worked up if we don't help him. @creations did your LO just fall asleep if left alone? I leave him to himself at times and just sit next to him, but usually he gets louder and louder and makes frustrated sounds. He rarely cryes unless in actual pain or severely OT, he mainly whinges and complains. Sometimes it seems that if left to do some flapping it takes the wind out of him and if I jump in at the right moment and tuck him in he'll go off just like that, but never really on his own. He is also teething atm which doesn't help but has always been like this. Also a bit of a short napper even tho that is getting better, but any naps over 45 min is a blessing! I nurse him just before bedtime so that is usually ok, although if the flapping thing starts again he will need restraining at night too, and sometimes he seems like he's gone back, starts up again as I lift my hands and if this goes on for too long he won't settle without a feed. He's a big baby (8.7kgs) and has just gone to the 4hrs routine, and 1 night feed a few weeks ago. Starting solids to see if it helps with suppressing night hunger. Sorry for the long reply thought I'd give a few more info! 😊

[creations]

Well, it sounds like you know him very well and are doing just what he needs to help him settle.  It also sounds like he is only mantra-crying (the whinges), doing what you are doing, sitting by him and helping when needed sounds perfect for him learning to self settle.  One thing you might try, depending if you feel it might be worth a shot, is to leave him to do the self soothing on his own, some LOs are bothered by mummy staying in the room too long. Mine was.  There was a fine line between him wanting me because he had teething pain or something and not wanting me because he wanted to be asleep so I was to go out of the room, that was quite hard for me to be honest and there was a certain phase where his mantra cry sounded very sad but he was not full on crying, I felt I should stay with him but he did not want me there it just put him off sleeping. So I told him "I'll go so you can sleep, call if you need me" and leave, I stood outside the room with a clock to see just how short the mantra cry really was, like 1 minute and he was asleep. Through this phase he also sometimes let out a loud but very brief cry right at the need of his mantra and half a second before nodding off - all very confusing for me as I wanted to dash back in there to him but he was actually fine and if I held back outside the room for those few moments (I must make it clear, this was not CC in any way, he was not calling me or properly crying) past his brief loud cry-out and then sneak in I saw him sleeping very peacefully.
I will also say, Tracy said it takes 20 mins for a LO to fall to sleep and for some it is the full 20 mins of the mantra cry before they nod off.  When mine was a new born he did take 20 mins to fall to sleep, later though I learned that if his mantra went on for more than say 5 mins this meant he would not be able to settle alone and needed a quick help.  I'd listen on the monitor and if it got past about 5 mins I just popped back in and put a hand on him, told him everything was ok and either stay a few mins or leave again depending how I assessed his reaction.
If your LO has a lovey it can be a huge help in self settling, perhaps introduce one if you haven't already.  At over 6 months I think it's ok to leave something like a small stuffed toy or muslin in with them for comfort but if you are not happy to leave it there you can let him self settle with it then pop in to remove it a few mins after he falls to sleep.

[mulvia]

Thanks - I have tried to leave the room for a few minutes and then going back in just to re-tuck him in, and that sometimes worked. I might indeed give a shot to actually just stay out of the room and see how long he goes on for. I noticed a handful of times he did settle quicker when I took my hands off, so maybe after being comforted he does want me to leave...who knows. 
We did give him a little soft toy but I find if he gets to it while falling asleep it seems to keep him awake - so I generally put it in the cot when he's asleep so he can find it when he wakes and wants to play rather than get up right away (and having said that, while I write he's asleep and I'm watching with the monitor, he stirred a bit, found the toy without really waking and settled again with the toy in hand, so maybe we can give that another go...!)
As for the 'calling' cry, does a loud, repeated 'AAAAAAH' with pauses in between sound like it? He does that at night (not very often luckily) or in the morning when he wakes up and after he's been by himself a little, so I usually wait and go in when he's done that for a few minutes and he's starting to sound a bit impatient.
I also wanted to ask about dummy use in these circumstances..we've used one quite early, and he generally falls asleep with it. As I mentioned he's feeding only once at night these days (still 2 in occasions) but at least a couple of times per night has half-wakings when he whinges a bit fairly loudly but is still asleep, will wake up if left too long but will go back off when dummy is replaced. Now, I have started pulling the dummy out gently while he falls asleep to try and show him that he doesn't need it (although the process is on hold for the moment as I thought something in his mouth may hep with teething pains) - could that be a good strategy or should I try something else?

[creations]

I noticed a handful of times he did settle quicker when I took my hands off, so maybe after being comforted he does want me to leave...who knows.

For me it was just something I had to have faith in, just try and if I turned out to be wrong that time then just go back to him.  I do remember when mine was older suffering something (I think it was the 2 yr molars but could have been anything really) he was having a massive screaming/crying session, I'd gone to him right away, I was holding him trying to sooth him, my DP was watching from the bedroom door, it went on a while, then I put him back in his bed and he stopped and went to sleep. I remember my DP being astounded, "how did you do that? How did you know he wanted to get back in bed?"  Well, truth is I didn't really 'know' it was just from experience that I had learned he screams for attention and then screams for me to go away.  I did of course get it wrong a few times, I'd leave and he didn't stop so I went right back and comforted again.  Many people call it Mummy-instinct, for me the 'instinct' was a thing I learned from trial and error.  Don't feel bad about not knowing or getting it wrong, you're doing your best and learning about your LO as you go

As for the 'calling' cry, does a loud, repeated 'AAAAAAH' with pauses in between sound like it? He does that at night (not very often luckily) or in the morning when he wakes up and after he's been by himself a little, so I usually wait and go in when he's done that for a few minutes and he's starting to sound a bit impatient.

I think they all sound different in their calls but what you describe does sound like he's calling for you.

I have started pulling the dummy out gently while he falls asleep to try and show him that he doesn't need it

Sounds like a good plan.  Over time I would think he could learn to use the stuffed toy as a comfort rather than the paci. Weaning a paci is a totally individual choice, some choose to keep it longer, mine never took one so I didn't have to make that decision.
You might encourage the attachment with the stuffed toy by having it with you during the A time and during feeds so he always holds it when you are cuddling him.

[mulvia]

Thank you, so useful! I have been keeping the toy with us for some cuddling and BF, and today for the first time he went down for his nap with it in his hands needing little more than the usual lullaby from me! 😊 I have some more questions but they're about naps duration and schedule so I'll start a new thread on the naps board. Thank you again in the meantime!

[creations]

Lovely update!
I would continue to use the toy during cuddles and feeding as well as sleep time so that it's 'power' builds.
What a little star he is to go to sleep with his toy