8mo: PU/PD gets worse

[Apple001]

Hi all,

My LO is 8 months. We're doing PU/PD (no picking up, only putting down if she gets up) since last Friday (so 8 days total). Everything went great: she dropped all night feeds on night 3 (slept from 7pm to 6am) and went to bed without nursing for all the naps/bedtime. Her naps got extended (from 30 mins to 1h 20min and even more). However yesterday something happened (she started having 30 minutes naps and crying afterwards) and it is getting worse and worse.

She doesn't want to go to sleep on her own. Last night she woke up at 2:30am and my DH tried to calm her down for 1hour and 30 minutes. But nothing worked. Our first night was not as rough. Eventually I fed her at 3:50am, and she fell asleep on her own at 4:15am. (Possible growth spurt I thought?)
She woke up at 6:50am, I nursed her right away, Then she had breakfast at 8:15am, and I nursed her at 8:40am. At 9am she started showing signs of sleepiness and it was around time for her first nap (I usually put her down around 9am). I put her to bed and she started crying (the same way she was crying at night). She cried non-stop for 30minutes. Her face was full of tears. I was there trying to calm her down, but the only thing she wanted is to be out of the crib. I even got inside the crib and lay there with her. It didn't help.
I took her out of crib at 10am and we went for a walk to calm her down. I nursed her after it. Around 11am I tried to put her down. The same problem. 
We spent some more time in the living room.
At 12am I decided to move some play into the crib (I thought maybe she is afraid of it). She played fine. However as soon as I started closing the curtains and getting ready for sleep, she cried. Around 1am (her second nap is usually at 1:30pm) I started nursing her in the crib and she fell asleep right away. She had 5 hours of A time! She slept for one hour and 20 minutes.

She just learnt how to stand up by herself (she did it first time on her 8th month and kept practicing during these two weeks). Could it be the reason? I thought her sleep problems should start before the new development. Or could another development be on the way?

Now i'm afraid of her naps. She doesn't want to settle on her own. PU/PD doesn't seem to work right now. The only way to help her is to hold her on her side (i.e. do not let her turn on her tummy and transition into the upright position).

She is not sick. I checked the gums in case she is teething (but it doesn't seem to be the case). We also moved the mattress at the lower setting on the day before yesterday, but she slept well for one nap and one night afterwards.

[becj86]

PUPD will only work to get her to sleep for naps when she's actually tired. What's her routine? It may need changing up now she's been sleeping better at night.

[Apple001]

Here is the sample of her routines:

Day 4 of PU/PD:
E 6
E 7 top up
S 8:30-9:30 (as soon as I put her down she went to sleep)
E 9:40
E 11:50 top-up
S 12:40-1:40 (put down at 12:30)
E 1:50
E 3:50 top-up
PreBT routine started at 5:10
E 5:25
BT 5:45

Day 7 of PU/PD:
E 6:30
E 8 top-up
S 9:50-11:00 (I put her to bed around 9:30)
E 11
E 1:20 top-up
S 2:25-3:40 (I put her to bed around 2pm)
E 3:50
E 5:40 top-up
Pre- BT routine started at 6:30
E 6:50
BT 7


I usually try to put LO to bed in 2:30-3 A time in the morning and 3-3:15 A time in the afternoon. Then she usually needs at most 20 minutes to get settled. Before if she was not ready to go to sleep, she would just play in her crib first and then start settling herself.

[Apple001]

I extended her morning A time today - 3 hour 30 min (from the start of the morning feed) and 3 hour 50min (from the moment she woke up crying and DH tried to calm her down before bringing me her for a feed). She fell asleep in 2 minutes: almost no crying, but I hold her on her side (otherwise she stands up) and she was holding my hand.

Her night went horribly: several night wakings (in the evening, at 3am and then at 5:30am, which ended up in a feeding and early WU). We expected that - she didn't have her morning nap and only slept for 1h 20min during the day.

[becj86]

I'd try that first a time at 3:20. She doing really well to be put in bed at 9:30 and settle herself at 9:50. I dont think you have anything to worry about wrt her self settling skills. I think its likely all in the routine now.

[Apple001]

Hi becj86,

Yes, everything was good up to day 7. She was settling herself and all her naps were at least 1 hour. She woke up happy. Then something happened: she has 30-40 minute naps with lots of really intensive crying before and after the nap (again the intensity of crying is much higher than the first day of PU/PD and it happens even after the nap!). Today her cries were much shorter (I think extending her A time helped with it), but they're still intensive and she also fell asleep while nursing during the nap. I don't think she is settling herself during her naps.

Day 8 had three 30-minute naps.
Day 9 had only one 1h 20 min nap (that is the day I described in the first post)
Day 10 had the morning nap of 1 hour and the afternoon nap of 30 mins

LO's schedule today (Day 11) was:
WU/E 6:15am with top-up at 7:50am and 9:40
A ~ 3h 45min
S 10-10:30am (I tried to put her to sleep around 9:30am, but she got upset and I decided to take her out, nursed her. Around 9:55am I repeated pre-nap routine and she fell asleep in 5 minutes but with crying.)

E 10:35am with top up at 1:05pm
A ~ 3 h 25 min (spent all time after top-up in the crib playing with toys <- I just want to make sure she is not afraid of her crib).
S 1:50-2:30pm (fell asleep really quickly with 5-10 minutes of crying)
E 2:30 (fell asleep while nursing)
S 2:40-3:35

E 3:40 with top-up at 5:15
Pre-BT routine 6:30
E 6:40
BT 6:55 (Almost no crying - less than a minute.)

How do I extend her naps without nursing to sleep?

[Apple001]

2 night feedings (11pm and 3am) and early night waking at 5:50am(which might be habitual).
Before (when she was sleeping through the night) i could deal with the early night waking. But now I'm not getting any good sleep during the night and then I need to start my day early.

During the morning feeds she was falling asleep. However when I take her to bed she is either crying really hard or playing. I ended up nursing her to sleep (after 3h 50kin of A time). It seems like we are back to square one.

I'm so dissatisfied with PU/PD. We had one perfect week and now we still have the same problems + new ones (early waking, intense crying). However we can't do PU/PD anymore because she cries much harder and we can't calm her down. We probably made a mistake somewhere, but I don't know where. Everything was perfect.

I'm just waiting now. Hopefully this is just for a couple of days, and then I will have my sweet little girl back on normal schedule.

[becj86]

Ok, so 1hr nap is still undertired - not restorative for most babies, really it should be . Really she can go to sleep when not optimally tired, I don't think you need to keep working on PUPD per se, the routine needs sorting. I think you may have to do 3.5hr by the clock for a few days to a week to see what happens - you really need to be consistent here.

Absolutely no point resettling a nap unless its OT at this point. We know she can transition from sleep cycle to cycle, if she wakes after 40min to an hour, the A time just wasn't enough, make a note and move on. Its worth being there at about 25min, to resettle if she struggles at 30min and has an OT wake - much easier to resettle when she's drowsy than when she is screaming.

[Apple001]

becj86, thank you for responding!

Should I put her to sleep at 3.5 hr exactly or like 3h 20min and have 10 mins for settling in? 
If her nap is between 40min and an hour, should I increase the following A time next day?
If her nap was less than an hour, should I decrease her next A time? For example if her morning nap was only 40 minutes, should I give her say 3 hours 10 min of A time?
If I nurse her to sleep, will she be able to transition from sleep cycle to cycle? I just don't want to hear her cry anymore (at least for the next week and then start weaning her of nursing to sleep again).
If she wakes at night, can I assume that it is hunger? Or should I assume it is hunger if it was more than 4 hours?

[becj86]

Should I put her to sleep at 3.5 hr exactly or like 3h 20min and have 10 mins for settling in?

10min is a long time for settling in and TBH, makes it difficult for LO because they can actually miss their window if PD too early. I'd go for PD about 3:25 A time and cross fingers for asleep around 3:30.

If her nap is between 40min and an hour, should I increase the following A time next day?

I think you need to hold it at 3.5hr consistently for a few days before making any changes as she needs things to be consistent to get the sleep she needs and at this age, if she has 2x1.5hr naps in the day, you'll have a very short night, so you will probably find you need one of those naps to be ~40min anyway. She may do incredibly well on 2x1hr naps as my DS did at this age. Just if you keep the A times consistent then she can start to take the sleep she needs. Most important is to get that first A time consistent so we can get an idea of what may be causing those NWs.

If her nap was less than an hour, should I decrease her next A time? For example if her morning nap was only 40 minutes, should I give her say 3 hours 10 min of A time?

Well, this stuff is so variable between children that its hard to know what to advise. The general rule of thumb is to reduce A time by half the lost sleep but we don't really know what the 'normal' sleep time is for her, so I think just keep it at 3.5hr and be ready to resettle an OT waking from the nap rather than reducing the A time.

If I nurse her to sleep, will she be able to transition from sleep cycle to cycle? I just don't want to hear her cry anymore (at least for the next week and then start weaning her of nursing to sleep again).

Possibly. It is unfair on her to wean off feed to sleep and then feed to sleep again when she's likely in the normal regression that happens when you've weaned a prop. It will make the next time you try to wean longer and probably with more crying. Its really important to be consistent. I would comfort some other way rather than feeding to sleep so soon after sleep training.

If she wakes at night, can I assume that it is hunger? Or should I assume it is hunger if it was more than 4 hours?

I think by this age, its unlikely to be hunger every time unless there's 4-5hr between wakings or she's eating way too much solid food and missing out on milk calories in the day. Early on in the evening (up to 3hr after BT) is usually OT from the day (this is the most reliable, even with an inconsistent routine). Long happy wakings in the early hours of the morning is often because that first A time isn't long enough. These are rules of thumb but without a consistent daytime routine for her, its very hard to decipher any signs from sleep length or wakings.

My main suggestion is to keep to 3.5hr A consistently for at least 3-4 days so she can have some predictability and let her settle into the routine and take the sleep she needs. Your job here is to provide appropriate sleep opportunities and hers is to sleep. She can go to sleep, we know that. Your job now is to be consistent and let her body have a chance to take what it needs in terms of sleep.

[Apple001]

Possibly. It is unfair on her to wean off feed to sleep and then feed to sleep again when she's likely in the normal regression that happens when you've weaned a prop. It will make the next time you try to wean longer and probably with more crying. Its really important to be consistent. I would comfort some other way rather than feeding to sleep so soon after sleep training.

We have already gave in because we couldn't handle her cry. :-( I don't know what to do now. I know we did a mistake, but she skipped a nap and was already going 6+ hours without a nap.

[becj86]

That's ok, sometimes you have to do whatever works.