5 month old waking at 5am

[kfields]

My daughter just turned 5 months old. For the past several weeks shes been waking up everyday between 4-5am. I usually just leave her be and she falls back to sleep within 45 min. Keep in mind that she is not crying but happily talking to herself during this time. She has been sleeping through the night with zero night feeds since about 2-3 months old. I do not do a dream feed, gave it a try at first but it never worked for us. The biggest issue I'm having is getting her to sleep till 7am. We used to have a 7am wake time and follow the 3 hours schedule. Now we are waking so early I'm fumbling as to when to put her down for the first nap and how to get her back on track for the day. I need to move her to a 4 hour schedule but also having a hard time since her naps are only 45 min. (Which also just started) She in bed asleep by 7pm every night. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Kim

[Kellyjs]

Hi Kim amd welcome! 

I see you've got two posts about  the same thing. I'll ask the GS mods to close your other one if that's ok.

Would you mind posting what yesterday looked like in real time for me? Not what you're aiming for, but what it actually looked like. 45mins naps and EW can be a sign that it's time to increase the A time a little but I'll wait to hear from you xx

[kfields]

Thank you!

Our day yesterday looked like this...

She was asleep the night before by 6:54pm

She woke up at 3:24am talked happily in her bed till 4am and was back to sleep. She woke again at 5:30am and played and talked to herself, sleeping on and off till about 6:45-7am.

7am:  Feed
8:30-9:15:  Sleep
10:30:  Feed
11:09-12:08:  Sleep
1:22:  Feed
2:10-2:48:  Sleep
4:15:  Feed
Tried for a nap again but she wouldn't have it. She wouldn't settle.
6:15:  Feed
6:54pm-7am:  Sleep  She did wake again at 4:45am and fell asleep again at 6am till 7am wake up time.

A few noted: My in laws have been here since Monday, they are leaving in the morning. We also took the paci away Sunday night because we had to go in multiple time to put it back in before she was out for the night. We would also go in when she woke at that early am time to reinsert the paci and that always put her right back to sleep. She is still swaddled as well, trying to lose it but I don't think she is ready. Ive tired one arm out, loose swaddle etc no luck yet. 
Ive been trying to have her at a 1 hour 15min to 1 hour 30min awake time.
Let me know if you need anymore info Thanks so much for your help!!

[kfields]

Also we have introduced solids but with her feedings and awake times being so messed up right now I haven't given them to her in a couple of days. She was coasting alone just fine until that 4 month growth spurt...So I know her schedule needs to change. And she needs to go to a 4 hour schedule. She only eats 6oz at each feeding as well...

[Kellyjs]

Don't worry about the 4hr feedings. Many bubbas never quite make it to that until well after solids are established. Especially BF LO's. We like to think Tracy would've updated her books should she still be with us. And I wouldn't worry about the solids, they are just for fun after all. Ideally when you do start, try one meal a day preferably not dinner time so any unsettled tummy can be dealt with during the day. And always after milk, not before. Many do it an hour after if it works with nap times. We want her to be filled up on milk and not solids.

6oz is also perfectly fine. She seems to get a good amount overall so don't worry there. I'd only be concerned if she was snacking and taking 2oz every feed or something silly.

Ok, so 1hr to 1hr 15 A time is simply not enough for her age. That. A time is suitable for a 1-2mo. She should be closer to 2hrs. That's where your problem lies. I'll be back to post a link in a mo. Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

We have to extend slowly as it can give us false signals if we extend too much too soon. We usually suggest extending by 15mins and holding for a couple of days to let her get used to it, then extending again. We usually recommend working on one nap a day but as your A times are so short, I'd actually increase all of them. Even after a short UT nap, she should be capable of reaching 1hr 45mins A. Do you think you could try this for me and let me know how it goes? Remember it is a process and it may not work straight away as the A times are short. Alternatively it may work for a day then revert back, this is just because she's getting used to the extension. If you keep me updated we can work through it ok? Xx

[kfields]

Thank you for your response.
I figured A times were way too short for her at this point. And I see now that I should have adjusted her schedule sooner. I was thinking it was a growth spurt and 4 month sleep regression and it would sort itself out. So you suggest trying for 1 hr 45 min wake time for a few days?  What do I do if that doesn't get her to her next feeding? Sometimes its right at the 3 hour mark so shes essentially feeding to sleep, which I know is a bad habit. Also she is bottle fed. Ive had to feed her early a lot lately because of trying to keep her A time on track. I think that has caused come confusion for her as well.  Ive been trying her at 2 hours today with no luck at lengthening naps. She still wakes right at the 38-45 min mark. When she wakes early what do you suggest I do? I usually give her anywhere from 5-15 min to try to go back to sleep. She very rarely wakes up crying, usually just fussing or groaning with a bit of talking to herself. I have tried to go in and pat her back to sleep but she will have no part of that, it only makes it worse. Ive noticed since she was newborn that going in to "help" doesn't work for her. I have no idea how Ive gotten so far off course with her! A little background on me...I was a nanny for 12 years! Ive worked with night nurses sleep training my charges! And always used this method with no problems. They seemed to always seamlessly and almost on their own extend their A times and moved to the 4 hour schedule with not much help from me.  Ha ha so Im taking this very hard that I cant seem to get my own child on track. Another note is that Abigail always wakes happy even after 45 min of sleep but usually begins to fuss shortly after being up for a bit.

[Kellyjs]

Don't worry at all.. Sometimes it's far worse when we're in it for ourselves! I posted something on here before about a bite mark on DD's tongue and I've been in the dental industry for over 20years!!! Should've known better 

Some bubbas need extra help extending their own A time. I too fell into a trap of too short an A time as it was easier to get her down as she had a habitual A time. As soon as I extended it, she could go much longer and it was more difficult to get her to sleep. It was only through having the lovely ladies on here support me I was able to find the right A time.

We have to be a bit inventive when it comes to the E times when the A times lengthen. An EASAEASY pattern can emerge. What we don't want her to do is wake early from a nap because she's hungry and that'll will give us false readings about her nap times and the A times that'll suit. Does that make sense? As lomg as you have a little A between the E and S it shouldn't become a prop. Even if it's just a quick nappy change or read a book before being put in bed.

Well have to hold the A times for a couple of days and see if she settles into it. I'm presuming the first. A will still be too short after 1hr 45mins or even 2hrs, but maybe after a short first nap, she might take a longer second one with those A times. Worth a shot? Something else you can do is try w2s. It worked wonders on my DD when I was teaching her to sleep longer. I'll post a link and let me know what you think? It does take some trial and error to figure how it'll work best xx

How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)

[kfields]

Would you mind showing me an example of times for what we are trying to do now? Im having a hard time working it out. While we are trying to fix these short naps what do I do in the mean time? Just get her up when she wakes, give her time to go back to sleep? Ive read that this 45min nap is due to them transitioning to the next sleep cycle. She stirs at exactly 38min and is fully awake at 45min. I have tried to go in before 38min and do the wake to sleep thing with zero luck. She only wakes sooner. At this time I used to go in and give her the paci and she would then sleep for her full nap. But since we have dropped the paci she can't make the transition on her own even though she knows how to put herself to sleep.

 And what about her morning wake time? This morning she woke up at 6 and we left her in her bed, she went back to sleep at 6:40. She seems to consistently wake around 6am, should I move her wake up time to 6am or keeping pushing for 7?

With her A time, when should I stop her playtime and go to her room to wind down? Ive done a few different methods and times of this but it doesnt seem to matter if we go right in and swaddle and put her in bed or if I read, swaddle and then to bed. It seems to still take her 10-15 to put herself to sleep.

Im feeling completely defeated at this point. Its impacting me and my husband both. Hes not very happy with how stressed and obsessed I am about all this. Sorry for all the questions. I tried the 1 45-2 hour wake times yesterday with zero luck....

[Kellyjs]

A baby's sleep cycle can vary anywhere between 35-50 mins. If she's unable to transition to the next sleep cycle, usually it's because she's not tired enough or she's in discomfort and that's causing her to wake fully. Have you checked for teething?

The w2s will only work if the A time is right or thereabouts. If she's waking earlier you can bet she's still UT. We do need to find the right time for her. I would go in and nudge her at 25mins after she falls asleep it it were me, perhaps at 30mins.

I would always see if she'll go back to sleep. Part of this process is showing her this is the time for sleep. Many people recommend keeping her in bed for the full time you'd want her to sleep for, but as we know she's definitely UT, I want to get the A time closer before we take this route as it'll probably just and you both a little crazy. I'd leave her for around 15mins if she's not upset to see if she'll go back over.

Som bubbas naturally like to wake at 6am or thereabouts. I would try and keep her in bed for at least 11hrs overnight and hope for 11.5hrs.

I'm going to give you the link to the what is your baby type quiz. That'll help determine how long to do the wind down for. But in all honesty you'll be the best one to judge that as time goes on. I always think it's a good thing they can be by themselves in bed for a little bit before they go to sleep, but ideally we don't want it to be too long as she'll miss the window for sleep. My DD has always taken 15-30 mins (15 in the early days, 30 after 8mo) to go to sleep at night. Never was a problem for naps, but I've tried everything to stop it, but it's just her way of winding down.

Would you mind posting what today looked like for me in easy format? It's nice to keep a log of things on here whilst we work through it. Sending you lots of (hugs). My DD was the princess of short naps and it drove me loopy too. Please don't worry too much, it never did mine any harm and she slept well at night just like yours. You're doing everything you can and we will get there, I promise xx

The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

[kfields]

Hi thanks for the encouragement. Here is a look at what she did the past 2 days...

Friday:
E: 7 am
A:
S: 8:55-9:40
A:
E: 10:30
A:
S: 11:36-12:16
A:
E: 1:30
A:
S: 2:29-3:04
A:
E: 4:25
A:
E: 6:15
S: 6:31pm-6am

Saturday:
She woke at 6 but we left her and she fell back to sleep at 6:40 and we got her up at 7:25
E: 7:45
A:
S: 9:06-9:49
A:
E: 10:55
A:
S: 11:40-1:40  She woke up at 12:18 and fussed till 12:34 and was back to sleep. My husband had to wake her up...
E: 2:00
A:
S: 3:15-4:15  She woke up at 3:57 but fell right back to sleep
A:
E: 5:16
A:
S: 7:07pm - 7:00am She did wake at 5am talked to herself for a bit and went back to sleep

Saturday I was out of the house for a much needed break so my husband was on duty. I was very hopeful after hearing about her wonderful naps but today we are right back in the same problem. She will not sleep, its almost worse today than it has been.

Today I am trying to keep feeding times at 3.5hr...I'd like to keep feeding times at the same time everyday. Im noticing that they are all over the place lately. This wasnt always the case. She used to eat pretty much at the same time everyday. This was before we started battling with naps. So today feeds have been: 7, 10:30 and will be at 2, 5:30 and 7. Possibly 5 and 7 depends on her.

Oh and I use an app on my phone to stop and start sleep times as well as track feeding and all other baby things (Thats how I have the numbers now the way I do...10:02 and such) On top of this we have been taking notes on paper to note exactly what we are doing. Mostly exactly what time we laid her down and how long it took her to cry it out and fall asleep.

So far today (Sunday) her day has gone as such:

E: 7:10
A:
S: 8:42-9:35
A:
E: 10:30
A:
S: 11:25-11:58
A:
S: 1:19-      This is where we are now...Put her back down because she was super fussy and I knew she wouldnt make it to her next feeding at 2. We put her back in bed at 12:50 and she fussed for about 20min

[kfields]

I forgot the mention that she probably is teething but has been for a while now. She chews on everything but her gums aren't red or swollen. Dr said that they are probably moving.

OH and the quiz says shes a textbook baby...

[Kellyjs]

Can I just check something please Kim?

You said there (sorry I can't quote on the ipad) that 'mostly exactly what time we laid her down and how long it took her to cry it out and fall asleep'

Are you using the CIO method? I'm sorry but we don't support that here as Tracy believed it might break the bonds of trust between a LO and its caregiver. Please understand, I can't help much with a routine that involves CIO as it will give us mixed signals. I'm trying to read what your DD is telling me from the logs, but if CIO has been used it really won't work. We believe we need to be with our LO's if they are crying and upset so they don't feel abandoned. Hence ssh/pat and pu/pd methods that we advocate to help use with sleep training. Both of those we are with our LO's when they are upset. If they are just fussing that's ok to be left and see if they'll settle, anything more we really need to attend to them.

So how long before the actual S on your logs are you putting her down for her naps?

What I can see so far is this...

The first nap is always around 45mins isn't it? A times have been 1hr 55, 1hr 35 then 1hr 32.

After a short nap, 2hrs A also yields an UT nap (Friday). I wonder if she would've gone back to sleep like she did on the following day on Saturday? This makes me think the A time is close here. As she fell back to sleep in 20mins, it could well be that an extra 15mins A would've seen her straight through to the next sleep cycle. So 2hrs 15mins A after a short first nap.

What you are getting is a good 12-hr night even if she is waking up a bit but then self settling. This is great and a good indication that she's not OT.

So knowing this, I wouldn't go backwards with your first A as you have been doing but go back closer to the Friday time of 2hrs and hold for a week. She may continue to short nap, but I want to try that second A of 2hrs 15mins there anyway after it. What I expect we will get to in time is increasing that first A yet again but we will need to hold it for a little while so she gets used to it first ok?

So how does all that sound? Like a plan? Xx

[kfields]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. When I say cry it out, I don't think I mean the way others use cio. She does more of a cry, stop, fuss thing. Not a crying screaming for 20min. Its more fussing than anything.

I usually take her to her room about 10min before time that I want her to be asleep. Should I make this longer? Im also trying to read a book when we go in sometimes she lets me and sometimes she just gets upset so I change her, swaddle, sing and sway and lay her down. Should I do something different here?

So from what I understand her first A time should be 2 hours then move to 2hr 15min for the rest of the A times for the day?
The reason for the shorter A times you see for the last 2 days, even today, is that she was showing signs of being tired. Rubbing her eyes and fussing. That's the only signs I get from her. I could have kept her up the full time...should I?

What do you suggest I do when she does wake crying more than fussing? It doesnt happen often and I usually give her 5 before I go in. I usually just get her up and call it done. She hasn't responded to my efforts of shhh/pat...

[Kellyjs]

Perfect, that's what I thought but had better clarify for other reading your post 

I personally would stop watching her so closely for the eye rubbing at this age. We have to keep one eye on the clock too, what we do know is watching her cues isn't working for her nap length so we have to try something new. A time can be learned behaviour, or they can eye rub if they're bored and need a change of scenery or for any other variety of reasons. My DD had a learned A time that was hard to break too, once we got past it it was much better.

For a textbook bubba I'd say 10mims is perfect. You're setting the scene for her. Some like a short wind down, others, especially spirited ones might like a lot longer. It is a case of trial and error. I found mine preferred a short wind down when DH plopped her into bed at 6mo and bam was asleep in 2 mins! All the time before I was doing a good 15mins  .

That's exactly what I'm saying about the A times for now. The first nap may continue to be short but I think you'd get a decent nap in with the 2hr 15mins after a short nap and that's not too far off what you've been doing when you got that longer nap. Do you fancy trying it and letting me know how it goes? Xx

[kfields]

HI, A quick update...naps are worse. Only getting 30 min now. From everything I have read this tells me she is overtired. I am so frustrated. I know EASY works...so why is this not working??