Please help me through the 8 month sleep regression

[Swannie]

DD2 has never really slept well, but for the past week it has been crazy.  She is 8 months and 1 week old.  She stopped nursing at night 3 weeks ago, but would still wake up looking for a brief cuddle a couple times a night.  Then she got a horrible case of hand-foot-mouth and understandably her sleep went out the window.  She recovered and then had two legendary nights of 11 hours of uninterrupted sleep. Then one week ago she started waking at night and needs to be held for hours.  I have tried putting her back down calm or in a light sleep, but outrageous screaming ensues so I end up holding her into a deep sleep, often several times a night.  (It's the kind of screaming that could wake the neighbours!). My DD1 went through the exact same thing at the exact same age, so I know it will get better eventually.  But DD2's naps have also gotten awful so I am just getting so worn out.

She was previously on a 3H A time until a couple of weeks ago, when it gradually increased to 3H25.  She was taking two naps of 1-1.5 H and that was working fine.  Her morning wake up times varied but it was workable because her naps were long enough for us to stay on a 2 nap day.  But now she has shortened her naps to 30-40 minutes, despite me tinkering with different A times.  She wakes up screaming now, whereas before she would wake up happily babbling. (She stops as soon as I go into the room, even if I don't pick her up). The result of the short nap day is that she often needs an "emergency" third catnap in the stroller (not ideal in February during a Canadian winter and needing to pick up DD1 from preschool). 

I'm not even sure what my questions are at this point.  I just need it to be a bit better, so I am interested in any advice or encouragement.

Re milestones: She has been belly crawling since before 7 months, but has recently started working on regular crawling (rocking on all fours).  She spent 8 weeks trying to get herself to sitting on her own (I admire the extended effort!) and finally got it yesterday. She is the kind of baby who practices skills at night. She has no teeth yet.

She is on two meals and a snack, plus 6 BFs during the day (I know it's a lot but I don't want to mess with it now that she has fully dropped all night feeds). 

Thursday:
6:50am: W/U
....I'm so tired that I can't remember what happened yesterday, other than nap 2 being 40 minutes and ending at 3:10
6:40: asleep for BT (I couldn't do it any earlier bc DW was not home from work to help with DD1 and I needed to fit in solids for DD2)
10:00: W/U, DW held her for awhile and put her back down (I was in and out of sleep through this so not sure how long it lasted)
11:30: W/U: I held her until 12am or so
5am: w/u I held her until 5:30am
6:20am: W/U for day

Friday:
6:20am: W/U
9:20-10:10: S (unexpectedly fell asleep nursing)
1:15pm-1:45pm S
No way we can make it until bedtime so I will try for a stroller nap at 4:30 or so)

[Kellyjs]

How's it going now? I'm sorry it's so rough for you atm. We had a yucky time at 8mo.

One thing I would check for is teeth. She may be having some discomfort there. How long has she been at 3hrs 25mins A? Has it helped with the naps at all?

I do wonder if you've gotten into an ut/OT loop. It's difficult to get out of, but not impossible. These short naps will inevitably be messing with the NS I would think. Then that 3rd CN also doing the same although I know why you're fitting one in.

What I did find with DD is that at this age the A time stretched dramatically. I wonder if we go to 3hrs 40mins A and hold for a good few days to see if we can find a pattern. All these different A times will be difficult to see what works unless we hold it. Wdyt? xx

[Swannie]

Thanks for the tips.  I will try stretching the A times.

Yesterday, the whole family was home so patterns were disrupted anyways. Her first A time ended up being 3H35 and her nap was 40 min.  She was really tired before nap 2 so A was only 3H but she napped 1H10 minutes.  Last A time was 3H30 min for a BT of 6:50pm.  First wake up was 10pm and then the night was crazy from there.  She wants cuddles all night long.  It very well could be teeth.

Today we have church and other activities so I wont be able to work on the schedule too much.  But tomorrow I will try A times of 3H40 (unless she has a short nap 1 and then I will adjust accordingly).

Thanks again!

[Swannie]

The car battery died yesterday so we didn't get far and DD2 napped at home.

8:15am W/U (slept the last part of the night on my partner)
11:45-12:15pm: S (I tried to make it to 3H40 A but she was very tired)
3:35-4:20: S (she appeared tired but fought this nap for 15 minutes)
7:35: asleep for BT (I put her in crib at 7:20)
9:15: W/U
11:50: W/U
1:45: W/U
....and so on, until my partner brought her into bed and I went to the couch in desperation.

DD2 only wants cuddles during her wake-ups. 

[Kellyjs]

Have you tried any other method of resettling like ssh/pat? I still suspect teeth, have you tried medicating with ibuprofen? She goes to sleep independently for naps and BT doesn't she? It's just during the night that's an issue?

I wonder if some SA is creeping in too? Have you noticed any of the signs during the day? It's a prime age for it. I'll post a link about some really good things to do during the day that will help ease it xx

Separation Anxiety

[Swannie]

I definitely recognize this as separation anxiety (the regression is so similar to DD1's at 8 MO...needing lots and lots of Mommy contact all night).  The daytime signs of separation anxiety are present too.  Thanks for the link to the resource; I will put it to use.

DD2 does go to sleep independently at naps and bedtime. It's just the nights that are an issue.  I've tried shhhh-pat and PU/PD but during this regression they are not working.  She wants to be held.

I think it may be teething too, since she still hasn't cut her first teeth.

Last night, after waking at the 90 minute mark (my partner got her back down), 20 minutes later she was later up for a two hour stretch (9:30pm-11:30).  I tried everything and she still couldn't settle.  So, I gave her some tylenol (we can't use ibuprofen because she has kidney issues) and she finally got her back down after holding her some more.  She woke when I put her back in the crib, screamed, but settled with me just rubbing her head.  She woke again at 4am, and I did the same thing to get her back down.

How long does the 8 month regression usually last?  With DD1 it was 3 very long weeks.  We are at the 10-day mark with DD2...I can't imagine another 10 days, especially because the naps are short too.

[Swannie]

Yesterday she managed a 50 minute and 70 minute nap (a huge improvement from the past few days).  As a result, she did not have a NW until 1:30am...but then I couldn't get her back into the crib until 3:30am. Arghhhhhhhhhhhhh! She started her day today at 6:45am.

[Kellyjs]

I think I may have blocked out how long the 8mo went on for.. Our most recent one at 2.5yo went on for over 6 weeks  .

So better naps means less NW's which is great. It may be the A time to BT is too long on the days with cr@ppy naps hence the NW after 90mins. I think we do have a combo of OT and teething going on here. Could you post what the day looked like when you got the two better naps and we'll take it from there.

Hugs though I do remember the long NW's at 8mo and they were so tough xx

[Swannie]

I am only updating now because I had a horrifying stomach flu last week and we were all in survival mode.

DD2's night sleep is still awful.  It's coming up on three weeks of needing to be held for hours in the middle of the night.  She still settles fine on her own for naps and at bedtime. (Note, when I was about to break after three days without being able to eat after the flu, she pulled a 10.5 hour night of uninterrupted sleep in her crib....maybe she sensed that I was really on the edge?

I fear I need to do sleep training in the middle of the night now, because she's getting used to only being held.  We room share (moving her in with DD1 next month).  Any suggestions on how to train her, also bearing in mind that she is going through a regression that is likely related to separation anxiety? My thought would be to try and see if she will respond well to me sitting or laying beside the crib while she falls back asleep.  She's not going to like it though!

On good nap days, the routine generally looks like this:

6:30 am W/U and BF
7:30am Solids
BF and books before nap 1
A1: 3.5-3.75 hours (less if she had really long NWs)
Nap 1: 1.25 hours
lunch
BF at 1:15pm
A2: 3.25-3.5 hours
Nap 2: 1.25 hours
BF at 4:15pm
dinner at 6pm
A3: 3.25 hours (sometimes less if she is clearly tired)
Bedtime: 7:30pm
sleeps peacefully for 3-5 hours before looong NWs begin.  Will often go back to sleep fairly easily if I hold her while I recline in bed.  When I put her back into the crib, she may sleep for a short while, but these stretches are decreasing. Last night after 1am, her longest stretch in the crib was 1 hour.  I realize I have created a snuggle prop in my desperation to get a bit of rest myself.  (Yesterday I started my day at 3:30am and she started hers at 5:50am, etc etc.)

[Kellyjs]

Oh I'm so sorry you've been poorly, it's sounding rather rubbish for you atm, huge hugs.

Your day doesn't look too bad at all, but there's a huge variation of what's *normal at this age. I think your plan of a gradual withdrawal will work. Remember to use your words when you put her back in the crib and keep using your words to reassure her you're still close by. It will be tough and ultimately some crying involved, but you will be there with her every step of the way. I do think it'll be better once you move her out of your room, but obviously you don't want to tackle it when she's sharing a room with your other daughter.

Let's give it a go, and keep me posted ok? We may need to tweak the day but let's double check it's not just a prop issue first xx

[Swannie]

Last night she slept from 6:45pm-3:50am (with a few cries/resettling on her own).  4am is not an ideal to do sleep training, so I just held brought her into bed after a few attempts to get her back into the crib.  She slept until 7am.  The naps today have been short (45 and 30), despite following a similar routine (and reducing A2 to accommodate the short nap 1).  I am worried about OT at bedtime, so tonight may not be the night for sleep training either.  Sigh.

[Swannie]

Last night was rrrrrrough.  She went to sleep at 6:35pm and was up screaming by 9:30pm.  I tried the gradual withdrawal method and she settled with me sitting beside her crib talking to her.  But then I made the tiniest sound (my bed squeaked when I attempted to crawl into it) and she started crying loudly.  Then the was a giant poo that needed to be changed and so she was wide awake by that point.  I held her for a bit and then put her into the crib.  My talking wasn't working so then I sat beside the crib, on the floor, and placed my hand on her body until she fell asleep.  The entire ordeal was 90 minutes.  She slept again until 2:30am and I used the same method, sitting beside the crib with my hand on her body and repeating the same sentence over and over.  This took about an hour.  There wasn't as much crying but she kept getting relaxed and then all of a sudden popping her little head up to see if I was still there.  She slept for two hours and then it was 5:30am and I didn't have the energy or resolve to use this method again, so I brought her into bed and she slept for 40 minutes and started our day at 6:20am.

The result of this crazy night and yesterday's poor naps is that she only got 10.25 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period!

My main question, likely unanswerable I realize, is how do I know if she is still in a regression versus a situation where my holding has become a full-out prop?  How long should I try these methods before giving up and just hoping that she improves on her own? (ie is it worth it?)

Sorry if this post doesn't make sense.  My brain power is diminished from lack of sleep.

[Swannie]

This was our day today:

6:20am: W/U
7: BF
8:20: solids
9:45-10:30: S
10:30: BF (I had forgotten to offer the feed before the nap)
12:30: lunch
1:00: BF
1:30-2:30: S
3:30: BF
5:20: dinner
6:30 BT

A times of 3.25, 3.0, 4.0.  I had shortened the first A because I assumed she would have been OT from the rough night, but it looks like she was actually UT because her nap was 45.

Is 1.75 hours of daytime sleep enough for an 8.5 MO?  It seems low given how long her NWs are.

[lauren29]

You are having SO MANY of the issues that we are! My son is 8.5 mo. I thought waking after 45 min nap was more OT?

I'll probably start my own thread given some unique issues that are different from yours but this thread has been helpful... fwiw.

[Swannie]

The last two nights I slept in the basement and let my partner deal with baby.  We have had some major improvements, where baby only needs a quick PU and some reassuring words, rather than an hour or so of holding.  She still woke several times, but the NWs were much shorter. It may be that she behaves differently with her other parent, but hopefully this will be enough to have re-set baby's expectations around what happens during a NW.

I am back on duty tonight because the weekend is over...