Author Topic: 4 month old: around 4 night feeds. Too many? Habit?  (Read 2565 times)

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Offline lauradj

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Re: 4 month old: around 4 night feeds. Too many? Habit?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2016, 19:34:20 pm »
That's great!  I'm glad to hear your PU/PD times are decreasing, that's a good sign.  What does your EASY look like now?



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Re: 4 month old: around 4 night feeds. Too many? Habit?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2016, 22:06:49 pm »
Hi there, welcome to BW, I don't think we've 'met' before :)

Why shouldn't you use PUPD unless you have an established EASY routine in place? These two posts seem to contradict each other. One says I'm doing great, the other says I'm doing it wrong / stop it.
I'd like to see if I can help with this confusion.
In the BW books (I'm not sure if you have read them/one/which) Tracy describes sleep training with young babies and using shush/pat, with this method you pick baby up if he cries and continue to shush/pat in arms until he is totally calm and relaxed (this may take quite some time) then put him down in the cot and continue to shush/pat, if he cries again you pick him up again and continue to shush/pat in arms until he is totally calm and relaxed.  It sounds to me like this is what you are doing although I do not know for sure, but from your description of waiting for him to stop crying and then your wife suggesting holding him a minute longer after the crying stops, well it sounds like the shush/pat method to me (even if you have adapted the shush by using song). so you will see this method involves picking up and putting down, this could in effect be called 'pick up put down' and Tracy does refer to it this way in her book. This is the method we would suggest is always used first.  There are adaptations which are generally accepted on the forums such as singing or a key phrase if/when shushing starts to bother an older baby or for some people rubbing or stroking if patting is disturbing LO or if they have reflux which it can aggravate, or indeed if parents arrive at the forums having already established another method of soothing such as hand holding or stroking LO's head, we usually accept this as an adaptation and work from there to gently wean rather than totally stopping the head stroking in favour of patting.  So then, this method is refered to as PUPD in the books, BUT here on the forums we like to make a distinction between shush/pat and PUPD so we call one shush/pat and the other PUPD.
However there is a difference between the type of picking up used in shush/pat and the method we refer to as PU/PD.  If you read the links given above on PU/PD (there is one for shush/pat too, within that PUPD link) you will be able to see in more detail.  In short the PUPD method involves timed put downs.  A baby is put down after a maximum of 5 mins hold even if he has not stopped crying, he is immediately picked up again.  For a slightly older baby you put down right after saying the key phrase, so this is a *short* amount of time to hold for.  For slightly older again they are not picked up at all but just put down repeatedly if they sit or stand on their own, if they become frantic you pick up for a moment and put back down.
It think you will see the two methods are quite different and why we do not advise PUPD (second version above) for young babies or for babies where shush/pat has not been attempted for a good period of time.
From your posts, from your description of your LOs tears I really don't think you would be comfortable to use a true PUPD as set out in the books or in the FAQs and I believe that like us you would agree to using a gentler method for a reasonable amount of time before moving to a 'last resort' method.
I hope this helps to clarify the confusion - really both the posts above are correct despite appearing to be totally contradictory.  It may help to refer to your chosen method as shush/pat from here on in as it just helps the community to be clear about which method you are using.

Whilst I'm here...  I know a few others have asked for the EAS times. I can't stress to you how important those are. Tracy Hogg set out the first 2 days of sleep training as observation days, to see what your LO does how often he feeds, when he sleeps and so on, this is for good reason.  A baby who is too tired or not tired enough will cry a whole lot more about being put for nap than one who is just about ready for a nice sleep.  This is another reason we would strongly advise against beginning PUPD (which can be quite a hard method on baby and parents) without the routine being looked at first, it just isn't fair on anyone involved to have all that crying and picking up and putting down at the wrong time of day when baby just isn't ready to sleep.

Despite you feeling that shush/pat has been somewhat brutal, it does sound like you are making good progress.  I urge you to let the community look at your times.

hth :)


Offline tipofthetree

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Re: 4 month old: around 4 night feeds. Too many? Habit?
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2016, 14:34:30 pm »
Thanks for that. I'm still a bit unclear on the difference, as I have been putting him down after 5 mins whatever is going on. But he generally calms before then.

Still not EAS timings for you. Need to get login details of app from my wife.

He has a cold, so all stop on sleep training efforts for now.

We've only focussed on the morning nap, and we were going to expand to other naps and maybe even night depending on how it's been going. But results have been variable, i.e. from 8 attempts we've had about four 30 min sessions of crying and then he fell asleep. A couple of 15 minute sessions of whimpering and then he fell asleep. And two failures where after 40+ minutes of trying, we just took him out for a walk and sleep.

The longest he slept for any of these naps was 40 mins. We didn't get the chance to do wake to sleep as he kept waking up before we would try it. After which he's obviously still tired, so a bit of awake time then a long walk for a proper nap. So all a bit confused.

Last nights wakings (some of these were feeds - he's EBF):
20:37 put down (after being fed to sleep)
21:29 woke up
22:05 put down
22:43 woke up
23:50 put down
12:37 woke up
1:20 put down
1:38 woke up
2:57 put down
5:20 woke up
5:51 put down
6:17 woke up

I get the impression that without giving you EAS timings you can't provide much feedback. BUT, we were just hoping to teach him the tool of falling asleep in his cot on his own, and piece everything else together around that.

Offline lauradj

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Re: 4 month old: around 4 night feeds. Too many? Habit?
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2016, 04:10:36 am »
The main reason we ask for everyone's EASY right away is that often the difficulties experienced around naps and night wakings can be eliminated without any sleep training, just by modifying the routine to reflect baby's age.  As an example, I can see from your post that your baby is waking around 6am but isn't going to sleep until almost 8pm, so something I would suggest is that you bring bed time forward by at least an hour.  Frequent night wakings can be a result of an over tired baby. 
If we know what your EASY during the day looks like, it gives us a blueprint to tackle the nights.   :)