6mo frequent NWs and EW with 3-2 transition

[Scottishmummy]

I wasn't sure whether to post in naps or here, but 3-2 thread is quiet & DD's naps are actually OK- it's their impact on her nights that's the problem....

DD hasn't been a good night sleeper since the 4mo sleep regression but had improved after she started self settling at BT & we started her on some solids. Since going to 2 naps however, her nights have got much more disrupted, back to waking every 2-3 hrs and always waking between 4.30-5.30. Sometimes I can AP her back to sleep with rocking her, sometimes not.

At bedtime, I aim for EBT, 3hrs after waking from last nap but she often seems UT, taking ages to settle.  I've tried putting her down later though as her last A time is often the longest but it is still taking time for her to settle, then she seems OT the next day.  Neither makes any difference to the NWs and EWs.

She has just turned  6 mo (26wks) On a good day, her EASY is as follows:

WU: sometime between 4.30-5.30, AP back to sleep
Wu: 6.30
E: milk 7am, solids 8am
A: 3hrs
S: 9.30-11
E: milk 11; solids 12/12.30
A:2.45-3hrs
S: 13.45/14.00-15.15
E: milk 15.15; solids 17.00; milk 18.00
A: 3hr15-30
S: try for BT 3hrs after waking but DD often not asleep until 18.30-18.45

NWs: usually 9/9.30 until I feed her; 1/1.30 (feed); 3; 4.30/5.30(half feed if fed 3.5-4hrs or more ago)

Any ideas on what could be causing the NW and EW and any suggestions on how to improve her sleep?

[trimbler]

Hey there, sorry for the slow reply, can I ask a couple of questions which may help us to work out what might be going on?

Just looking at that last nap - on days when she goes down at 2pm, do you still wake her at 3:15, or is that when she wakes naturally? I just wondered whether she may actually be getting a bit OT and having trouble settling for that reason, especially on days when she had a shorter second nap? Or have you tried a 3h A time after a 1.5h second nap and if so, was that definitely UT? How long ago did she drop the third CN?

When did she start solids? It sounds like she's on quite a lot for just 26w, even if she's taking minimal amounts, even those tiny quantities can cause discomfort for immature digestive systems. Did you see any correlation between the disrupted nights and starting solids?

When she was most recently sleeping better, what was her routine then, how long ago was it, and how much sleep did she get on average per 24h?

What are her NWs like? Is she screaming, fussing, fidgeting or chatting/playing?

[grace annes mommy]

In a similar boat, just following along.  Hugs, SM

[Scottishmummy]

Hi Trimbler, thanks for taking the time to reply (& hi grace Anne's mummy too!)

So nap routine - she dropped the 3rd nap a week or so ago. We still occasionally have a very short (15min) 3rd nap around 4.30 if she's woken v early or had short naps.

I don't wake her from either nap, she seems to have a natural WU at 3.15, regardless of when she started the nap.  Maybe hunger or habit as milk feed is always around 3pm?

I can't tell whether the trouble settling at night & wakings are OT or UT. If I try putting her doe before 3hrs, she's very wide eyed & chatty. . Much after and she's crying and shouting. At the moment I'm putting g her down at 3hrs to be asleep for 3.15 or so as her last A time is always her longest but again so eyes that works well & she settles easily, other tines not.

Solids: She started solids at 24.5 wks and is 27 wks now. I have just cut back to 2 meals as she stopped getting dirty nappies for a couple of days and I wondered if she was a bit constipated from being overloaded with solids. that said her nights actually got better after she started on solids- going longer between feeds than she used to.

Previous sleep: Our clocks changed to BST about a week ago. The pattern of EW really kicked in then. Before then we had some 2 nap days, some 3 nap days & A time around 2hr30-45. I think total day sleep was 2.5-3hrs and nights were around 11-12hrs (in 4-5hr chunks- she would sleep roughly 6.45-10.30pm; 10.45-2.30 or 3; 2.30/3- 6.30/7)

NWs- she's fussy the first part of the night by feeding seems to settle her. The most problematic and one I really want to get rid of are the 4.30/5.30 wakings. Sometimes She's wide awake, chatty and cross if I try to resettle her, sometimes she'a wide eyed but can be rocked back to sleep. I almost always change her nappy which is heavy by then. Sometimes I have to feed her or take her into our bed to get her back to sleep. I often can't get back to sleep though, even if she does and am v tired from all the early starts

[Scottishmummy]

Nb I should add that I don't wake her in the morning if she sleeps longer and I wonder whether that's contributing to disruption?

For example, on Sunday she slept in until 7.30 after being awake 4.30-5.30 & last night she was awake 4.00- 5.30 but then slept until 8.15am.  So last 2 days looked like this

Sunday:
EW:4.30-5.30
Wu:7.30
Nap 1: 10-10.30 (seemed v tired early)
Nap 2: 1-2pm
Nap 3: 4.30-4.45
BT: 6.45, asleep by 7

NW: 9.40 resettled until 10.30 (feed) 2am (feed)

Mon
EW: 4-5,30 (feed at 5)
Wu: 8.15
Nap 1 : 11.10-11.30
Nap 2: 1.30-3.15
BT: 6.15, asleep at 6.40

[lily_layne]

Nb I should add that I don't wake her in the morning if she sleeps longer and I wonder whether that's contributing to disruption?

I often let DS sleep also and I don't think it caused problems. I found he was often ready for his morning nap around the same time (or only 15-20 minutes later than usual). If the morning nap was quite a bit later, I woke him at 11 to get the day back on track.

If you think the 3:15 waking is pretty set (and it could be - it would fit with many LOs' biorhythms), could you try starting the pm nap a touch sooner?

WRT solids, if she's enjoying them, I would keep on as you are. Every LO is different in how fast they take to solids and how much they eat. Both of mine were little chowhounds and ate much more than average right from 6 months. I just followed their lead and stopped feeding when they indicated they were full.

WRT settling at BT - my DD often took aaaaaaaaaaages to settle and I agonized over whether she was OT or UT. Now that she's older, I can see that it's just the way she is - she needs that extra time to wind down so it may be that your LO is similar.

My DS did have a spurt of extra NW just after he transitioned onto 2 naps but it got better after a few weeks.

[H7]

Mine LO is going through a similar thing with transitioning to 2 naps and is on pretty much an identical schedule to yours including milk and solid times. Just wanted to pop by and give a supportive I'm there with you, you're not alone wave.

Feel like I've tried every tweak to the routine that I can but it doesn't make a difference she still wakes every day with a 5 on the clock. Trying to convince myself that it's a phase rather than her natural wake up time!

Sorry I can't offer advice but I find it helpful to know I'm not the only one going through it so thought you may too 

[Scottishmummy]

Thank you all.

H7- good to know it's not just us! She used to wake occasionally around that time but since going to 2 naps it's been everyday for 2 wks. Maybe an age & stage thing? Wondering if it's a bit OT/UT with longer A time to bed but also EBT.

Thanks Lily & Trimbler.  I'm trying the following now:

Giving tea at 4pm instead of 5 so it's not as close to bedtime milk, in hope she'll take a better milk feed in case she's waking from hunger..& to give more digestion time for solids.

Sticking with only 2 naps as CN definitely gives us long wakings around 4-5am.  2naps still give us EW but more likely to resettle quicker and easier.

Trying to have a nap window i.e first nap no earlier than 9 & no later than 10 (unless she's up really late). 2nd nap started by 1.45 latest.

I think she might be going through some developmental stuff too which could be contributing- she seems to be getting cause and effect now- playing peekaboo, reacting and responding to her own reflection in the mirror as well as getting better at sitting and she's also started pre-crawling - scooting backwards on our wooden floors!

In addition she's also just started to show signs of stranger/separation anxiety for the first time.

Must be a lot for her to process though, so not surprised if it's affecting her night sleep as well as nap transition

[trimbler]

Definitely loads of developmental stuff going on at that age - really exciting, of course, but can play havoc with sleep. Quick question - when you last did the CN, how long was it? We found 10min CNs to be quite helpful towards the end of the transition - avoided the long A to BT but allowed us to accrue enough A time to avoid UT. Just another thought...

[grace annes mommy]

Sounds like you've got some good plans to try out.  Let us know how it goes!  If it helps any, I've cut back to just breakfast for solids and that has really helped NWs here bc I think her tummy was still adjusting a lot to the new foods.  But we were getting early morning/night time poos.

Sorry to hijack for a min. - Trimbler - what would A times look like with a 10 min. catnap.  For instance, we have appx. 2 hr 45 A time for first nap and I can't seem to work out the timing of the 2nd nap.  Today, 2nd nap was done at 3pm which will not get us to bt.  When would you do a 10 min nap and bt?

[lily_layne]

Trying to have a nap window i.e first nap no earlier than 9 & no later than 10 (unless she's up really late). 2nd nap started by 1.45 latest.

That sounds like a good plan. I ended up doing more of a set-time routine with DS rather than constantly chasing A times and I found that worked well. His was always ready for his first nap until he dropped to one nap. If he did sleep in and wasn't ready to go down until later, I just woke him around the time his morning nap usually ended to get the day back on track.

[trimbler]

GA's mummy - that would depend a lot on the rest of the day (including when she woke in the morning) and what her overall sleep needs are in 24h, if you have a rough idea of that? Just bear in mind that the A after a 10min CN would of course need to be short, but it can be useful if you know she needs a little bit more A time in the day than she can manage with just two naps. Sorry if that doesn't really answer your question, but I'd always found it helpful to keep overall sleep/A needs in mind with this sort of thing.

[Scottishmummy]

Trimbler, we were down to a 10-15 CN around 4.30/45.  I can't even AP one now.

GAM- after a 10-15 min CN, my DD could do 2hrs until BT, so that gave us a 6.45ish BT, asleep by 7.

Poor DD has been constipated. I've reduced the amount of solids, included water with meals & am avoiding starchy foods for a bit. She had a big poo this morning so hoping that will all help her be more comfortable at night

Still trying to get nap times & A times right, especially last A time. DD just won't settle at BT but she used to really easily when she had the CN so I think I need to experimenting to get right A time. I feel that if I could get a better BT, we'd get s better night as the NEs increased at same time she started taking longer to settle at BT.

[trimbler]

Want to post your current routine? Can't promise to respond tonight but it may help others... Glad she managed a good poo this morning what solids has she been having? I found the following helpful: Constipation and Laxative Foods

[Scottishmummy]

Thanks Trimbler.

Eating: we were following Annabelle Karmel but have realised that it is just starchy, constipating foods e.g. Lots of baby rice, banana,  sweet potato & carrot. I'm encouraging sips of water at meals & still sticking to fruit and veg but offering things with a higher water content like melon, cucumber, pear, courgette & green veg like broccoli & peas. I'm thinking of moving to more BLW than spoon feeding so DD can control amount better. I did a mixed approach with DS which worked well (some mashed food self fed on loaded spoons & finger food)

Routine: Pls edit if you wish as not BW approach but I was googling and came across mention of a 2-3-4 routine i.e. Increasing A time through the day:
Wu
A: 2hrs
Nap 1
A: 3hrs
Nap 2
A: 4hrs
BT

It seems to be working for DD, although she does 2.5;3;4.  Yesterday she did:

Wu: 7am (after long NW 3-4.30am)
A: 2.5hrs
S 9.30-11
A: 3hrs
S: 14.00-15.20
A: 4hrs
S: 19.20

She had the easiest BT settle & best night she's had in 2weeks. I am a little cautious as the last A time is so long for her age, but going to keep going but watch out carefully for signs of her getting OT.