Author Topic: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working  (Read 3739 times)

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Offline Sharwellstudio

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Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« on: April 21, 2016, 16:50:59 pm »
Hi all. I posted before when I started using the shh/pat when DS was nearly 5 months old. I started with nap training and he has done so well!  He is 6 months old now, breastfed, a small amount of solids,  and I feel his reflux is under control. Naps are really good, except if he wakes before an hour (only happens if he loses the pacifier) I have to put the paci back and sometimes do a quick shh to help him resettle. He can put himself to sleep for both naps and bedtime (with the pacifier)!  Sometimes it takes 2 minutes sometimes it takes 12, but he can do it on his own if the pacifier stays in place--no shh pat needed. Any big wakings and he won't go back to sleep. At night he flips out and won't go to sleep without the pacifier and  my help. Or if he wakes in the 4 or 5:00 hours he wakes happy but won't go back to slee on his own. Doesn't fuss, just plays and won't got back to sleep. I have left him for up to an hour. He won't do it.

--We have found that 2:45-3 hr A time before BT works best.
--He wakes  5-7x/night
--I feed him around midnight and around 3am when he wakes. This is down from 4 feedings/night.
 --He is almost impossible to resettle after 4am. We get 30-45 minutes with lots of shh pat,  typically after an hour


So where do I go from here?  Shh pat seems like a prop as much as the pacifier. DH wants to do some sort of leave him and check on him at timed intervals. I feel like this is what we are left with. I want to get rid of the pacifier but it is such a help!  I feel like we will be regressing by taking it away. He can roll from back to tummy and likes to sleep on his tummy. He cannot roll the other way yet. Thoughts on a plan for us?

Offline trimbler

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2016, 20:28:08 pm »
Hi there, great to hear of the amazing progress with settling for naps and BT :D

Please could you post a recent, typical day's EASY? I can't help wondering whether a routine tweak might be what he needs now, especially since he settles so well independently during the day, I just don't feel like this is a matter of sleep training, more likely routine.

Please do continue to go to him when he's upset in the night, he needs to know that he can still trust you to come when he needs you. Absolutely fine to leave him if he's just playing, it's pretty common and it may be partly developmental, especially if there's a lot going on right now, eg rolling, starting solids etc.



Offline Sharwellstudio

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2016, 21:51:41 pm »
Wake up 6:25,happy, get out of crib at 6:35
E: 7:14 x10 min and 8:15 x7 min
A: 6:25-8:42
S: 8:42-10:24 (1:42)
E: 10:30 x 9 min and 12:35 x 9 min
A: 10:24-1:04
S: 1:04-1:42. (0:37)Undertired?  Wouldn't go back to sleep
E: 3:26x 16 min
A: 1:42-4:03
S:4:03-4:24 (0:21). I woke him to make sure we had a decent bedtime
E: solids (we are just starting these) 5:40 and 6:40 x12min before bed
A: 4:24-7:15
BT 7:15
S: 7:25-8:54 (1:38)
S: 8:56-12:42 (3:46)--this is the longest stretch of sleep by far. Typical is 2:30
E: x16min
S:12:57-4:00 (3:03) again, a miracle!  Because it was after 4:00 and he is impossible to settle after eating I tried not to feed him. He was upset but gave into short bouts of sleep
S: 4:13-5:10 (57 min)
S: 5:15-5:45 (30min)
Out of crib at 5:55 and I fed him immediately.

DH says I have to wait 4 hours in between feeds and ween the later morning feed by cutting down his time on the breast 1 min each day until he doesn't expect to eat anymore.

I have a hard time not feeding him sooner than 4 hours during the day. He seems so hungry and eats well. Maybe his reflux is bothering him still and he needs to eat less at a sitting but eat more often. Don't know. But this above was a fairly good night. Most are way worse.

Offline trimbler

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2016, 13:12:16 pm »
Hi there, thanks for the detailed EASY! Just a few thoughts to ponder...

That looks like a great first nap, I wonder how he would respond to stretching that first A time just a tiny bit, to get the nap closer to 2h? May not be necessary, but it may help to push the day out a bit without him getting OT...

I'd be surprised if the second nap was UT, given that he had such a good first nap on a shorter A time, but perhaps he was just more refreshed after his long nap? You could try pushing the second A if you really think it was UT, but it could just as well have been OT... I wouldn't push both first and second As at the same time though, so pick one and see what happens.

If you do get a short second nap, I would definitely reign in the next A time, I reckon he would have been OT by the time of the third nap and certainly by BT. At this age, mine would often short nap either of the first two naps (or both!) and take a longer third nap, instead of a CN, and that was fine for them, since they needed it to make up for the earlier short naps. I think you want to try to avoid OT at BT, I'd have probably gone for the third nap no more than 2h after the previous short nap, and let him sleep a little longer. That 1.5h stretch at the beginning of the night is typical of an OT LO, as is the early waking and struggling to settle afterwards. I know it sounds strange, but often letting them have an early BT can help them to catch up after short naps and result in them actually sleeping better and night and waking later too.

As for the BF - do discuss with a lactation consultant or doctor if you think the reflux is bothering him still, they could watch you feed him and see if he seems uncomfortable, or whether it's just his normal feeding patterns. Please be aware that here on BW forums, we tend to feel that Tracy's BF guidance is a little outdated in the light of recent studies, and that she would probably have updated them if she were still alive now. I'd still encourage you to see if he'll take longer feeds during the day, by making sure he's burping if necessary, comfortable, not distracted, etc, have you offered both sides... But be aware that you may just be a nursing pair who needs to feed a bit more often, perhaps due to the reflux, or small tummy, or lower than average milk storage capacity of your breasts - there's actually a huge range! If he's content and satisfied after each feeding and definitely doesn't want more, then rest assured that many, many LOs never 'make it' to 4h until solids are well established, and some mums will 'top up' just before a nap to ensure their LOs don't short nap due to hunger, whilst others will give a top up around an hour after the first feed, as it seems you're doing already. I certainly wouldn't want to be weaning any daytime feeds just yet, although it may be that he'll 'consolidate' two into one (during the same A) - or he may not. But I mostly just want to encourage you to continue to tune in to the cues your LO is giving you, and don't feel pressurised into trying to stretch his feeds apart if that's not what he needs :-*

I'm hoping that if he's less OT at BT, then he'll become more settled at night, and then you may be less worried about feeding him, knowing he'll settle again afterwards. It's pretty normal for a 5mo to need two bfs at night.



Offline Sharwellstudio

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2016, 00:14:57 am »
Talk to me about overtired and undertired and A time before bed. I'm not sure I am following your suggestions. We are moving from 2:15 A time to 2:30. Soon he'll be at 2 naps and a really early BT.


Offline trimbler

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2016, 19:05:34 pm »
Yeah, sorry - I'm struggling to follow it myself now :P

So - your second A time above was 2h40mins, which I thought might have been a bit much given that the first nap was so good on around 2h15min. From what you just said about your A times, perhaps that 2h40mins was unusual?

If you get a short nap, whether it was OT or UT, it's easy to fall into a tricky cycle, since most LOs need the following A time reduced, otherwise they get OT and do another short nap. If you keep A times long (for him) but he's short napping, he'll end up OT by BT, which can lead to NWs and EWs. The reason I say that the CN can be taken at a shorter A time, is that as you're increasing the other A times, the day gets longer - most LOs need to be doing around 3h for each A before they can drop to two naps. But if he does 3h before each of his long naps, then another 3h before his CN, he may not be able to manage much more A in the day without getting OT. So I'm just saying whatever the A is earlier on in the day, the A before the CN may be a little shorter (if not now, then it probably will be eventually), and especially the A after the CN will need to be kept short.



Offline MasynSpencerElliotte

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2016, 21:38:08 pm »
I see your lo is 6 months now and I have just skimmed the posts...but wondering if the 3rd nap is needing to go to help the night sleep. Is he just 6 months? A times for just 6 months are 2.5-3 hours, and possibly over 3 hours later on during the 6 month, so it may be a case of needing to push out A times. 

I see your DH is encouraging waiting to 4 hrs to feed, please let him know the bf info in the BW is somewhat out of date and some bf babies do not make a 4 hr routine until solids are well established (some of course do but all lo's are different!)  My DD3 fed top up feeds until she was on 3 solids meals around 8 months old...so really I bf her quite a bit, but bm is so digestible they sometimes need more frequent feeds than you think).
Heidi




Offline Sharwellstudio

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2016, 22:30:07 pm »
Yeah, 2:40 is a long A time but i think we need to keep pushing it. The problem lies in his early wake ups (5:00 hour) that leaves us in a bind and bad cycle. Like today for instance. He woke up at 5:17 and wouldn't go back to sleep likely due to hunger (he only got one feeding over night, almost 2am). So we did a 2:20 A time based on cues and he slept just over 2 hours with the aid of a nap extension after a wake up at 30 min. The second A time was 2:40 and he slept just over an hour and wouldn't go back to sleep. So now we are stuck with a really early BT and the cycle will perpetuate. I don't think there is room for a CN since he woke at 2:15pm. Shooting for a BT between 5:15 and 5:30 i guess.

Thank you for the clarification on A times. He is just now 6 months and I have not tried a long initial A time followed by shorter A times later in the day. Maybe that is our answer. Just sucks to feel like we are floundering. . 

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2016, 01:44:15 am »
These transistion times are hard! I know the ew make it hard to stretch out the A but the ew are probably happening partly because he needs more A time...when the nap comes too soon in the am it just reinforces the ew...total catch 22!
Heidi




Offline Sharwellstudio

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2016, 01:51:38 am »
DISASTROUS!  Got him down at 5:20pm but he only slept a half hour. Then got him back down and he slept 20 min and was adamant he wasn't going to go back to sleep. :(. I am feeding him now since it is a typical eating time before a 7pm bedtime. He is/was so OT! 

How much awake time during the day should I shoot for?  And should I have done a late cat nap and a late bedtime? Or tried a 4:45 bedtime?  Does anyone do that?!?! 

BABIES ARE HARD!  and I suck at this!

Offline lily_layne

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2016, 03:10:47 am »
BABIES ARE HARD!  and I suck at this!
Yes they are hard especially when they are changing their routine!!! I had so many days where I felt like this with LO1. I want you to know that you do not suck at this! You sound like a loving and caring mother - you are doing wonderfully at an incredibly difficult job! All of us moms are really just fumbling through this the best that we can.

So many of my feelings of inadequacy were caused by my need for every day to be perfect. An EW or a short nap totally blew my confidence because I was certain it was because of something I did wrong. I got some great support here before LO2 and it helped immensely. The ladies on here reminded me that so much with LOs is beyond our control and NWs, short naps and ugly BTs are all part of the package. One wonderful BWer reminded me that expecting and accepting rough days can make them so much easier to handle. I can link you to my support thread if you're interested - there's some really great advice.

How much awake time during the day should I shoot for?  And should I have done a late cat nap and a late bedtime? Or tried a 4:45 bedtime?  Does anyone do that?!?! 
As with so many things with LOs, it's mostly trial and error to figure out what works for your LO. I think yours is telling you that on days like that, try for a CN and later BT. I learned to use rough days to teach me what works for my LO. I guessed at what adjustments to make and tried to be relaxed (it was really tough at first) if things didn't go well and just use what I learned to help me out next time things went sideways.

Every LO is different, but at 6 months my DS was doing 8-9 hrs of awake time. His routine looked this:
WU: 7
S: 9:30-11
S: 1:30 - 3/3:30
BT: 6:30/7
Usually 1-2 NFs
(Of course, there were lots of days when things didn't go according to plan!)

« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 19:17:04 pm by lily_layne »
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2016, 18:19:37 pm »
^^^ this ^^^ You're doing great :-*



Offline Sharwellstudio

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2016, 23:41:26 pm »
Thank you all. Motherhood is freaking difficult! Encouragement and suggestions help me so much.

Today we are trying the shrinking A time between each nap instead of the opposite.
WU 6:00
A: 2:30
S: 8:30-10:20, but he had 2 wake ups in there that I replaced the paci for
A: 2:27
S: 12:47-2:07 (took him awhile to fall asleep, like 5 min and I thought he was UT but he had no WU)
A: 2:13
S: 4:20-4:40 (currently sleeping but I helped him with "shh" after 5 min of him not doing it on his own and I will wake him after 20 min if he doesn't wake on his own.

BT will be close to 2:30 A time. I hope he is tired enough. I don't think it exceeds the 9 hours A time for the day. We have had him throw a fit when he isn't ready to slog down for the night, hence why I have stretched his A time before bed lately. We shall see!

Offline lily_layne

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2016, 02:37:02 am »
That looks like a pretty good day. I hope you get a decent night!
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline Sharwellstudio

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Re: Pacifier prop and numerous NW, shh/pat no longer working
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2016, 03:11:59 am »
Bedtime update:
I tried to do 2:30 and he struggled. Just couldn't settle. Finally helped him with shh/pat after 10 min of him spitting out the paci over and over and it still took another 12 min for him to fall asleep. A time was 2:55. Which is right about where we have had success in recent days (2:45-3:00 before BT).

Another question I have pertains to acceptable nap lengths. I was under the impression over 1 hour was good enough but since he should be moving towards consolidating naps should I try to extend all naps?  What is developmentally appropriate for his age with 3 naps?  And transitioning to 2?

Thanks