Feeling stuck! 11mo nursing to sleep

[helbk]

I have enjoyed breastfeeding my baby boy since he was born, and hope to continue BF once in the morning and evening when I return to work in a month's time. He currently sleeps well (7.30am-5am, after husband consistently saw to him during the night to break BF habit) and once down for naps in his cot he can sleep for over an hour, though not always!

 My challenge is he will only settle if I nurse him to sleep. This can take quite a long time (sometimes over an hour), particularly during the day, with him wailing every time I stand up to put him in his cot. Though initially upset, my husband is able to get him to sleep in about 10-20mins at night with cuddles and singing, then sitting with him next to the cot. He struggles with nap times though.

 It means that no one else is able to put him down for naps/night which is really constraining, but also concerning for when he starts nursery. My husband is the only one who can go into him to settle him if we wakes at night, as I'd just be trapped in the BF cycle for an hour if I go in. I would like to be able to comfort him too!

 In the past we did some sleep training using PUPD/Shh/pat due to him waking every hour, and this worked well. Typically this slipped when he became ill and was teething so I've been nursing him to sleep for quite a few months now but it's becoming less and less effective. I've read so many sleep training approaches, the gentle ones such as the Pantley method, to gradual withdrawal, but I just don't know what would be better for an older baby who does generally sleep through. Our LB currently sleeps to white noise and I've introduced a teddy in our close time together in the hope it'll become a transitionary object.

 Help!! Any advice or thoughts would be very much appreciated. Thank you!!!

[jessmum46]

Congratulations on breastfeeding for so long   So glad you've enjoyed it!

Could you post your daily routine, what time you start trying for naps and what time he eventually sleeps?  I wonder if perhaps he needs a routine change to get him to settle more quickly - even with a breastfeeding prop an hour sounds excessive and I wonder if he perhaps isn't tired enough when you try?

In terms of the approach, honestly I would say it depends on whether you are a slowly slowly kind of person or a 'rip the bandage off' type!  Given he's been used to PUPD in the past, once we've checked the routine I would be tempted to use that - making sure you are doing it (or even better DH) in an age-appropriate way - How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

In the day currently how many breastfeeds does he have besides WU and bedtime?  Just wondering if 2 nap time ones are the only ones whether perhaps we just need to think about how you wean those, or whether we need to factor any others into a plan?

[helbk]

Hi Jessmum, thanks so much for replying.

Daily routine:
Wakes 5-6am, cries for us, and has a long feed in our bed.
Breakfast around 7.15am (loves his food!).
Start nap routine approx. 3.5hrs after he WU - sleeping bag, darken room and white noise. I used to sing a lullaby but he protests and searches for a feed. He dozes off after 10mins or so but often protests when I try move him into the cot so can repeat this a lot
Lunch around 12, sometime a snack sometime in the afternoon.
Second nap around 3pm.
Dinner & formula bottle at 5.45pm, bath 6.40ish, asleep by 7.30pm. I can only take about 10mins to put him down at night from a feed (in an ideal world I'd quite like to keep this one, especially if I'm home late from work, but I don't know if that would be sending confusing messages).

He's often fussy and protests as soon as we put him in his sleeping bag, even though he's yawning. He accepts a book from dad at bedtime but not from me any more. With any successful put down it's when he's dozing and I've placed him on his side (his favourite position). When he was 9-10 months we'd slipped into the habit of feeding 2-3 times a night (after having had a period of sleeping through), which we managed to break by my husband going in to settle him. My husband still goes in on the times LO wakes up, and it involves singing, cuddling and taking him out of his bedroom and back in again to calm him down.

I'm now wondering if he's hungry again by the time I put him down for his naps. I realise maybe I should be giving him more snacks. Interestingly I gave him some yoghurt about 15mins before starting nap routine this morning and he went down quite quickly. He sometimes has a top up feed after a nap (depending on how long he was feeding before he went to sleep) and the occasional brief feed at other times during the day, though I think these are maybe out of thirst/comfort so I can distract him. I was wondering if playing some alpha music during the day naps may help more than white noise (with the added benefit of nursery also playing this kind of sounds during naps).

Thanks for the PUPD link, really useful. I'm a bit stuck on not wishing to be cruel in suddenly taking the BF comfort away and causing him distress, to wondering if the slowly slowly will just be more frustrating for everyone all round. PUPD appeals to me as a good in-between, though I'm wondering if I could add another step beforehand to ease the transition (say offering a 10min BF before sleeping then only PUPD after the 10mins is up). Would I be tackling naps and bedtime at the same time?

Sorry for the mass of information!

[helbk]

Oh dear, have I lost you jessmum?!

[jessmum46]

No I'm here!  Sorry for the slow reply  

3.5h I would say is probably on the shorter end of A times for this age group (Average A times- BOOKMARK ME! ) so I might be tempted to push that a bit further and see if he goes down more easily for you.  It's often a rough time for naps anyway around this age as the beginnings of the 2-1 transition kick in - not saying he is ready for one nap all at once!  Just that's likely to be the direction things are headed over the next few weeks to months.

That might mean if you want to keep a longer morning nap that you will need to wake him from his second nap to keep bedtime to a sensible hour.  From memory with DD at this sort of stage we were doing something like WU 6.30, Nap 10.30-12, Nap 4/4.30 for 30-45 mins then bed at 7, asleep for 7.30ish.  Some LOs will be happy to go down a bit earlier and will take an UT afternoon nap and wake naturally, though that tended not to work for us very well.

He's often fussy and protests as soon as we put him in his sleeping bag, even though he's yawning.

This could well be him telling you he isn't ready to sleep yet.  Tired signs become more unreliable as LOs get older and yawns can be boredom, accumulated tiredness, or even just habit if he is used to sleeping at a certain time.  This may be especially true of the morning nap as that long dozy feed in bed isn't really stimulating A time, and I'd expect he could manage a bit longer awake before needing to sleep again. 

'm now wondering if he's hungry again by the time I put him down for his naps. I realise maybe I should be giving him more snacks.

I would give him a good snack sometime before his first nap, if you push that first A time a bit then you could do it around 9.30/10am which fits nicely with your other meals and snacks. 

With PUPD I think you need to separate the eating entirely from sleep.  Fine to breastfeed before sleep is due, but I would do it in a bright room, not the bedroom, and a good 15 mins ahead of when you are planning to start the sleep routine.  If you let him feed for 10 mins to get comfy, then stop and PUPD I think that's really confusing for him and will add to the frustration. 

I would tackle naps and bedtime all at once yes, and the same for night wakings i.e. not picking up/cuddles/singing.  I'd expect it to be really tough for the first couple of nights but then you should see some improvement.  How are you feeling about it?

[helbk]

Thanks Katherine (I've just seen your name!), I really appreciate it. Your advice makes sense and is reassuring. I am apprehensive about the PUPD, and to be honest feeling a little sad about the end of sleepy feeds but think it needs to happen. I might do a few naps in the pram so I can get a bit of a break in the hard early days (if this isn't cheating?!).

Will definitely build in more snacks, I think he's been pretty hungry! I'm curious about how to substitute breastfeeds now we're on this cusp of it no longer being a sleep prop, me soon to be going back to work and him not needing formula after 1 year. Would I start offering him cows milk with snacks now say?

I'm interested in the timings of the naps. Do you find A time between second nap and bedtime is shorter then? When I return to work there will be some days where I won't get back until around 6.45pm so might need to push bedtime back a little to get the feed in (or accept that maybe I can only do the first feed of the day). It will be interesting to see if the change to routines will help him sleep in a little more in the mornings. I hope so!

Thanks so much again for your help, I'm feeling a but more confident about it all now.

[jessmum46]

How are you getting on?

I think a few pram naps are fine   Often later in the day to prevent OT bedtime meltdown is a good time to do them.  Yes the last A time can be a bit shorter - but depends on how you play it.  You'll probably need to start waking from one nap to fit everything into the day, and which nap you wake from will determine where the short A time ends up.

For example a routine at this age might be:
WU 6
Nap 9.30-10 (wake)
Nap 12.30/1 for 1.5-2h
BT 6.30/7 - so long last A, short middle A

But another could be
WU 6
Nap 10-11.30/12
Nap 4ish for 30 mins
BT 6.30/7 - so two long As and a very short one

So with breastfeeding there are different ways to go about it.  With my two I dropped the daytime ones in favour of a mid-morning and mid-afternoon snack with a cup of water.  Morning we just went straight to breakfast - I offered cows milk as a drink but actually neither of them really took to it until quite a while after we'd stopped breastfeeding entirely.  But they were happy to have it on cereal.  Neither of them were too bothered about this feed suddenly disappearing.  The BT feed I thought would be really tough but actually it wasn't.  We started a routine of bath, feed, stories, bed so that they were used to going into the cot fully awake at bedtime and the feed wasn't the last thing before that.  I tried once with DD to offer her a cup of milk - she screamed the place down!  So after that for a few nights I breastfed downstairs before going up to start bath time so the routine became feed, bath, stories, bed.  Then just didn't offer the feed before we started the bedtime routine and neither of them missed it

[helbk]

Sorry for the delayed response, I've only just seen your reply.

A huge thank you for your support. After 2-3 days of PUPD etc my LO suddenly switched to being perfectly happy being put down in his cot awake, and settling himself to sleep. The first 2 days were really tough, with him very distressed so I did end up giving him cuddles (brief ones!) but he got the message and is very happily settling himself now. I moved the chair across the room so he wasn't so expectant of a feed, an he's become a lot more attached to his teddy which has helped. We now snuggle up to read a book before sleep-time and I keep any feeding strictly out of the room.

His day is now looking something like this:

WU 6.30am
BF 6.45/7am
Breakfast 8am
Snack 9.30am
Nap 1 1.5hrs sometime 10am-12pm
Lunch 12.15pm
Snack 3pm
Nap 2 3.45/4pm (Generally in the pram, wake him at 4.30pm)
BT 7.15pm

So his longer A time is between the naps. It will be interesting to see what happens when he starts nursery, with how well he sleeps, them giving lunch at 11.30am and the older ones napping from 12.30, and the reluctance around the final nap (though he clearly still needs it!). The short/long nap combo is probably better the other way around. Shall I just leave it how it is for now and cross that bridge when it comes to it or do you think I should be trying the switching around now?

Thanks again!

It looks like BF has now naturally dropped to just the morning feed and sometimes a late afternoon one. I was offering him a beaker of cows/formula milk with his snacks but he wasn't really interested.

[jessmum46]

That's such a great update - well done!!  If it's working for now I would just go with it and worry about nursery when you get there xx