5.5 months and think we need PU/PD but not sure when or how

[katiebee18]

Often my LO falls asleep on his own, with a pacifier though I do sometimes have to put it in a few times or hold my hand on his back (and kind of keep him on his side) but there are times when he does not or it takes a little more intervening from me.

Plus, he does get up often at night. Lately it's 1-1:30 A, 4-4:30 A, 5:45-6:15 A. He only eats on one side so isn't getting a full feeding and often for the last 2 I will lay him down, only to have to go in minutes later to give him his paci and/or put my hand on his back and help him find a comfortable spot.

Eating during the day is 2-3.5 hours. I know that is a big window but he is BF and my supply isn't great. I take something to help and it does.

At most he takes 3 - 40/45 minute naps. Usually wakes up happy unless he has a burp as he holds onto air for a long time. Sometimes he takes like 2 -20 min naps and 1 40/45 minute nap.

He does 11.5-12 hours at night as I recently moved up BT based on some advice I got on the boards BUT that is with about 5-6 NW (as stated above 3 feedings).

He can usually handle a 2.5 A time pretty easily.

A few questions:

1) Should I ditch the paci? I somehow used PU/PD and a paci with DS2 and he was by far my best sleeper and I think the paci was a huge part. Just gave up the paci last night at 2.5 years old.

2) Since the real issue might be more of short naps, should I just save PU/PD for those nap times and not use a paci there so he can learn to go back to sleep without one?

3) If he does a 12 hour night and 3 - 45 minute or so naps and seems okay, do I really need to extend naps? Thinking probably yes as this may decrease NW??

4) I have never done PU/PD with a baby this old (my other 2 were 4 months - almost 5 months), he seems to cry more when I pick him up and is really squirmy. Is there a limit to how long to hold him?

I would not have waited this long but we just got him in his own room last night, worried I will miss my little window as PU/PD has worked great for my older 2 but this baby almost seems to need it less or at a different time I suppose as he can already fall asleep (mostly) on his own quite frequently.

Thanks!

   

[katiebee18]

Just took a 30m nap and I feel like maybe I should have done PU/PD here? He is wide awake though and acting hungry. But would this have been an ideal time to try? I did some PU/PD to get him to sleep but didn't follow through as he was getting more upset when I was actually holding him so I got confused and gave him his paci and he went to sleep.

I am a hot mess over here!

[katiebee18]

I guess I stumped everyone (including myself)

Any insights.

Here is our EASY for yesterday and so far today

YESTERDAY:
W/U @ 7:15 AM
E - refused until 8:30 and only took 1 side
E 9:30
A
S: 9:55-10:10 (15m - in car)
E: Would not eat again when offered
A
S: 12-12:30 (30m)
E: 1:45
A:
S: 3:11-3:38 (27m)
E: 4
A
S: 6:15-6:20? (in carrier for 1 hour before fell asleep for 5 min)
BT @ 7:30 (NW @ 8:06 P, 8:56 P, 9:30 P, 9:45 P, E - 10 P, E - 2 A, E-6 A slept restlessly till went in and helped him go back down at 7 AM for another 45min)

TODAY:
WU @ 7:45 A
E: 9 (didn't want to eat immediately again but did eat at 6 A)
A
S: 10:13-10:39 (26min) --- started trying ot get him down at 9:57 A
E:12:15
S: 1:10-1:44 (34m) --- started trying to get him down at 12:50

We are in trouble....
2.5 year old is sick and trying to get over giving up paci this weekend and moving into his big brother's room (4.5). Those 2 are keeping each other up late and exhausted. I am starting to lose it

He always short naps like 45 mins but we haven't had one of these in days --- maybe WW? Please tell me it will get better!

[katiebee18]

I forgot 2 E times yesterday --- snacked around 11-12 and then had a good feeding around 7 P before bed

[michaeljacknnugg]

I haven't looked at your EASY in detail because I just want to ask why you are going straight to PUPD? It's really the last resort amongst Tracy's methods and is not suitable for all babies (eg spirited and reflux babes will get more upset by it).

As he's already settled himself before, I'd suggest WIWO. Or GW. They might take longer but they will ultimately give him more confidence to sleep on his own.

[katiebee18]

I only tried PU/PD once with him. It worked great with my other 2 and I am more comfortable with it but am open to trying other methods though keep in mind that I have a 2.5 and 4.5 year old so I can't be spending hours on sleep training every day, it's just not possible.

If he can not sleep more than 25-40 mins without waking up, what would you suggest?

Today we we had naps of 26m, 34m and 38m and I got him to bed at 8:00 for him to be up 28m later. I expect him to be up several times in the next few hours. I am lost, just looking for some help.

[jessmum46]

Hi there . Just wanted to let you know I have seen this - am on the way out of the door to work but will be back later with a few thoughts x

[jessmum46]

It does sound like you need some sort of sleep training but I agree PUPD is probably not where I would begin, unless you really have no other choice.  You can't use PUPD with a paci anyway - you'd either have to get rid of it as part of your PUPD or you'd need to wait until LO is old enough to reply without help - at which point it becomes a comfort item.

Personally speaking I wouldn't try PUPD for extending naps.  My experience is it just gets everyone hot and bothered and doesn't work brilliantly as it is quite stimulating.  I would focus on independent sleep skills at the beginning of naps and then work on finding some good A times. 

I'm wondering if apart from that you may be in an UT/OT loop and need to start extending some A times.  We were approaching 3h with DD at this age and I notice you were trying for just over 2 hours on one of those mornings.  I can't really comment on the day that started with a car nap - there's no way of knowing really if he'd have done longer if he was sleeping elsewhere.  I would try aiming for around 2.5h A as a starter, and see where that gets you.  You're likely to have more resettling success if he's a bit OT (I would at this stage probably just go for a paci replug and see if it works) and hopefully with consistency those naps will get a bit longer too x

[katiebee18]

Thanks so much! This at least gives me something to shoot for to see if it helps, I feel like I am just having no luck even finding a starting point.

Tomorrow we have a PT coming to assess him as he may have some motor delays (likely not per developmental therapist who was here today), so that will throw off trying for a 2.5 hr A but I will give it a go on Friday for the following days to see what happens.

Today ended up with a short A time (1h40m) and a long one (3h30m) and both produced 30-35m naps and I would think one was UT and other OT, so you are probably on to something.

If I re-plug when he wakes and he is just staring at me, do you think I could pick him up and see if he will snuggle me a bit before laying him down or is that typically not a good way to go? I try and re-plug, and roll him to his side, give him his blanket and pat him but he just keeps flipping on his back to stare at me and looks wide awake so I am just looking for resettling suggestions. I can post on the naps board if that makes more sense.

[jessmum46]

I think you can try whatever works for resettling really, within reason.  I try for minimal interference, pretty much only doing what I would do at the start of a nap.  But honestly I think some kids just don't resettle very well, whatever you try.  DD never did, not until she was much bigger on one nap even if she clearly needed it.  DS is generally easier, but the best bet for those who aren't is getting some good A times and working on those independent sleep skills x

[katiebee18]

Thanks Jess.  Still 25-35m naps consistently. Lots of NW. I do think if I get him in bed around 7 he will do about 12 hours so maybe that is more important than his long daytime sleeps right now. Maybe he will just be a cat napper until he is older (or always, Lord I hope not!) Once I have more of a routine, I will post to see if anyone can help me tweak A times to set him up for success with resettling.

[jessmum46]

How is your EASY looking?  Have you managed to extend the A times a bit?

Just as a thought - any possible discomfort causing short naps and frequent wakings?

[katiebee18]

EASY still isn't regular yet. Today he was pretty tired for both naps already at like 2h10m A time, so often we still have 4 a day.

I have gotten some naps at right around 2h30m A time and still the same result so far with 25-35min naps but I will keep trying.
 
Last night he slept really well (like didn't even wake up once - I woke him at 430 AM because I was engorged) maybe we are in a growth spurt. The night before I think he ONLY got me up at 1130 and 4, so that was great too!

Naps today still around 30-35mins but I did see he resettled at like 23mins for one of them, so that is good!

Still working towards extending A time and to a consistent bedtime of right around 7 PM. Last few nights we have been coming home around 7-8 PM so I know that is not helping him get into a groove.

I feel like he is pretty comfortable around 3 hours before he needs to eat again, but some days he gives me mixed signals and I am popping my boob in and out of his mouth like every hour or hour and a half. Today he is fussy and that is one of those days.

Thanks for checking in. I hope for a consistent week and will post my EASY in the next few days.

[jessmum46]

I'll look forward to it   Even if it looks all over the place do post it for us as sometimes another pair of eyes can see something you may not have spotted.  Don't be scared of extending A times though - honestly more issues seem to be caused at this age by UT rather than OT as people worry about how long the A times are getting.  But sometimes a good push towards the 3h mark over a few days/week can really help x

[katiebee18]

Hey Jess - I do wonder if I should just be trying for 2 naps. We are pretty steadily on 3 but he is taking forever to go down for some of them.

He is getting in crawling position and babbling a lot more, plus we have a bout of thrush for a week and half so I feel like these are definitely playing in.

Our EASY can still be a little over the place, but here is yesterday which is pretty typical:

8/3
W/U @7:45/8
A: 2h45-3h
S: 10:45-11:22 (37m)
A: 2h22m
S: 1:45-2:15 (30m)
A: 2h55m
S:5:10-5:40 (30m) --- tried putting him down at 4:40 so it took 30mins
A: 2h42m
BT: 8:22 PM --- up for NF at 11 and 4

8/4 - so far

WU @ 6:40 (not to eat) but got him back down at 7 and slept until 7:30
A: 2h48m
S: 10:18-10:48 (30m)
A: 1h32m
S: 12:20-12:30 (10m) - fell asleep in car, wasn't planing on that!)
A: 2h05m
S: 2:35-3:08 (33m) --- tried putting him down at 1:30 and then 2:20 he went down after 15m

Like twice in the past few weeks he has rested an hour (no more), and maybe 3 times around 45 minutes. Otherwise we are usually still in the 23-38m per nap range. It's kind of driving me crazy!

Also W/U can vary from 6:20-8 so that throws things off day to day.

He is often waking crying from rests where he wasn't before.

He has a hard time settling and I have to keep giving him his paci and trying to roll him on his back or stomach. Then I leave and come back in if he cries. It's getting exhausting!

But usually only have to go in a max of 1-2 early evening which is improvement though the other night I had him down at 7 for him to be up from 7:40-9:20 crying and hating everything I was doing to help him.

Any insight appreciated!