Day/Night mix up

[vero86]

Hi everyone!

I just had my second child 10 weeks ago. She has been fantastic! Very calm baby, generally good sleeper (5-8 h stretches at night) BUT she won't go to bed before midnight - 1 am. In the beginning it was 10pm but it just keeps getting later and later. I have tried MANY times putting her to bed at a reasonable time but she keeps on crying/waking every 5 minutes. I actually went up telling her it's sleepy time every 5 minutes for about 3 hours... with NO LUCK.

Yesterday I tried putting her to bed around 10:30-11pm. She had her eyes closed but would wake up when I put her to bed... she finally fell asleep after A LOT of resistance at midnight. She woke for a feed at 7:15 and woke up again at 11 am.

I just can't keep it up with another child and I need some time with my husband!

Her general awake times are 45 minutes to 1:15 minutes... She needs help falling asleep (soother and sometimes rocking) and sleeps about 40 minutes at a time...

Thanks in advance for your help!!!!

[Skadiver13]

Hi Hun, it sounds a little like day/night mix up for sure. Have you tried a super early bedtime like 6pm for a few days? Also could you post your EASY? 40min naps generally indicate OT but 1hr 15min seems normal to me. But if the first nap is short he might be getting OT as the day goes on from naps that aren't restorative.

[vero86]

I've tried 7:30 and 8:00 pm but not 6:00pm. What would I do when she wakes from her nap? try and encourage her to go back to bed? When do I "give up"? 6pm would be a little early for us though as we are usually still eating dinner with our toddler...

Here is a sample schedule. Schedules are very flexible with another one at home...!

11:00 am Wake up
11:15 Eat
12:15  sleep
1:00 wake
2:15 sleep
3:00 wake
3:15 eat
4:30 sleep (she fights this one)
...

and then it gets chaotic with dinner time and all - we usually have 1-2 naps in the swing and she eats every two hours or so until 11:00 p.m.... and usually falls asleep around midnight - 1am.

Thanks for your help!

[creations]

Sorry, I don't want to cause confusion here but the naps sound more UT than OT to me.
At 10 wks you could increase A time to more like 1hr 20, I'd say 1hr 15 minimum, the 45 minute A times are likely too short even after a short nap.
A 40 min nap suggests either a little under tired or than she has not yet learned to transition between sleep cycles at nap time although is doing so wonderfully at night.

I would try a couple of things at the same time
1. Increase the A time to 1hr 15 - 1hr 20
2. Begin the day much earlier. After such a late night the temptation is to let her sleep in late but this can perpetuate the BT resistance, midnight to 11am with a night feed at 7.15am is really a great night length, just not at a sociable time.  I'd start the day either at that WU around 7am, feed in light not dark, keep her up as long as you can towards that 1hr 20 A time (you might only manage 1hr as she will be very tired) and try to get natural light.  Then put her to nap at 8.15/8.35 then not let her sleep more than 1.5-2hrs.  Wake her at the end of the nap to begin the next EAS cycle and continue as best you can through the day.
3. You could try warming her bed a little before you put her in.  Mine DS settled more easily if a warm (not hot) water bottle was put in his bed for a few mins prior to putting him in.  Do not leave the water bottle in the cot, only use it to warm the area and do check the sheets are not too warm before putting LO in, it doesn't need to be very warm it's just so it feels more like body warmth, less of a shock when put in.

If you persist for a few days with this routine you may not get longer naps straight away (after a short nap I'd go for a 1hr 10 A time just slightly shorter than the full A time) but the day/night routine should improve.  BT will be at 7 to 8pm based on 7am ish WU.  She will likely be quite unhappy the first day because you are waking her from what she considers her night sleep, but you are likely to have more luck with moving the routine by changing WU and letting BT shift to follow rather than trying to get BT earlier for Wu to follow.
Hope this helps

[Skadiver13]

It sounds like that first A time is too short? 45min naps usually mean UT. Does she wake happy? I would try perhaps pushing that first A time more to 1hr 20/1hr 30? Maybe 10min increments every day or so? Just to see if you get a longer nap? But then another 45min nap may mean she's getting OT as the day goes on?

Check out this link for some sample routines: chronological EASY samples, 0-3 months

But yes I would do perhaps for 3 good naps and then a short CN and bedtime at 7. Yes it may disrupt your dinner for a while but it's worth a try. If she wakes up again you just resettle as if it were a night waking. No lights, no getting her up just resettling. It may take a few days to a week but she needs to understand when Bedtime is. she'll figure it out. Also make sure you differentiate your naps and bedtime winddown routine. Naps should be much shorter and perhaps add something to the Bedtime routine you don't use for naps.

Posted same time as creations.

[vero86]

Thank you both!

I will increase A times and try waking her up a little earlier in the morning and hope it won't take her too long for her to go to bed earlier.

Will let you know how things go!

[creations]

Good luck!

[vero86]

Hi there,

So for the past 3 days I have been waking her up at 9am (or she wakes up at 9 for a feed and then I keep her awake). I try to start bedtime around 9:30 pm but there is A LOT of fighting back... and usually takes me 1-2 hours to put her to bed (she stays in bed, I shush her, put her soother back in)... sometimes she sleeps for 5 minutes and then wakes up wailing. Once I put her in bed, I try not to pick her up and just keep on saying 'its bedtime' while calming her and shushing and patting her.

Here has been my schedule so far:

9 am wakeup & feed
10:20 ish - sleep
11:00 wake - but I usually am able to put her back to bed and then she sleeps until 1:00 p.m.  (Today she slept until 1:30 - wondered if I should wake her...)
1pm feed
2:30 ish - sleep
3:10 awake (I can rarely put her back to bed)
3:45- 4:00 ish feed
4:15 sleep
5:00 awake
6:30 sleep
7:15 awake & feed
... and then if I try to put her to bed at 9 she fights it even more... so I cuddle and feed around 8:30-9... and then try bedtime routing around 9:30.

I know 40 minute naps are usually a sign of either UT or difficulty transitioning. I think it is difficulty transitioning (although she sleeps 8-9 hours straight at night). I really do try to put her back to bed after each 40 min nap - but after the first nap, it is not easy. I usually do errands also in the afternoon which, I know, does not help.

Do I just keep doing what I am doing? I SOMETIMES have her asleep by 10:30 but more around 11:00 - midnight still (a few days ago it was 2am! eek!!!!)... so she is a tired baby since she isn't sleeping the 9 hours that she is used to.

Thanks in advance!!

[Skadiver13]

a 930 BT and a 9am wake up is acutally very good. 12.5hr nights at my house are unheard of. Have you thought about moving wake up earlier to get an earlier bedtime? We had to do this around 10 weeks too (my dd is 4months now) but she was fighting bedtime sooo much that I wasn't getting her into bed before 10pm most nights. So we just started waking her at 8 and shot for BT of 8 and it's slowly moved to 7-7 which works better for us.

Thoughts. If she takes a good nap that first nap, what's her second A time look like. Is it still 1hr 20? Perhaps she needs more? Only you'd know that. But I know if my lo takes a really good nap she'll need a bit more before she's ready for her next nap. Meaning she needs a shorter A time in the AM and a bit longer in the PM to be ready for her next nap and for BT. So her A times get longer as the day goes on? My son was the complete opposite. He needed a much longer A time in the morning and shorter A time before bed.  If she takes a crappy nap you can shorten her next A time but not by too much. Usually 15min should do at this age.

I would try moving her bedtime earlier. So instead of waking her at 5pm. Let her sleep till 530 then get rid of that last nap and make her bedtime 7pm.

Just keep plugging away sometimes it just takes time and her routine will sort itself out.