Author Topic: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...  (Read 818 times)

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Offline jkitiara

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Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« on: September 20, 2016, 17:44:33 pm »
Naps continue to be a struggle for my 12 week LO, so I tracked carefully what we did yesterday, and would love to hear thoughts from anyone who's been there!

8:45pm-3am sleep (usually sort of wakes up around midnight and does what I call the whine and wiggle--he almost always puts himself back to sleep)
3am eat
3:30-5:45 sleep
5;45 wide awake and happy
6am eat (breastfeed - sort of like a dreamfeed. He gets mostly formula so this is the only time we breastfeed in bed. Sometimes we both snooze but we don't really sleep)
7:30 eat (bottle)
9:15-9:55 nap
10:30 eat
11 activity -- tried to be quiet and calm, in case he is getting overstimulated during this time. Just sitting in his bouncer and some soft music
11:30-12:30 nap
1:20 eat
1:40 wind down time
2:05-3:35 sleep
4:00 eat
4:45 into the bedroom for wind down
5:30 asleep (finally stayed down the third time I set him. This was a fight!)
6:00 wake
6:15-6:45 slept more in my arms
7:30 eat
8:15 tank up feed (could barely stay awake)
8:30 bedtime - very easy to put down awake for bedtime
3:30 eat - goes back to sleep easily
6:45am wake

He is textbook but with a big dose of touchy. He has some reflux that I think we are getting under control. My two big issues:
1. short nap times (as you can see, rarely more than an hour). I am guilty of letting him mostly sleep in my arms until just recently. At about 10w he stopped sleeping in the stroller/carseat and I suddenly realized something was going to have to change! So I don't know if he would have always been doing shorter times, since when he sleeps in my arms I can jiggle him back to sleep for hours, or if that started with the same developmental jump that made him stop sleeping in the stroller

2. He has started fighting against the swaddle really hard. He has been swaddled since birth, but it was never an issue before. Now sometimes he is calm, then as soon as I start to wrap him he starts crying and thrashing. What's up?

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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2016, 09:20:20 am »
Hi there
Sorry to see you didn't get any replies yet.  I'll have a read through your post now.


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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2016, 09:49:42 am »
I'm back. Welcome to BW forums by the way - lovely to have you here :)

I see you've had a couple of threads about wind down and routine. I have not read them all closely but just had a quite look for background.
A few questions:
- Are you finding the shorter A time helpful or do you feel it has made things harder either in terms of getting him to go to sleep or how long he sleeps for?
- Are you finding the longer calmer wind down helpful now or is it harder to get him to calm and go to sleep?  I think you said on one of the threads the longer wind down seemed to make things worse but things can change over time so it would be useful to know how you feel about it now.
- Is he on medication for the reflux? What meds?

If possible please continue to record your EAS times as accurately as possible as it's one of the few things we have to go on when offering support on routine.

At about 10w he stopped sleeping in the stroller/carseat and I suddenly realized something was going to have to change!
For what it's worth mine also had a nap refusal at 10 wks. Up to then almost all day sleeps and the first part of night sleep were in his travel cot (like a pack and play) in the family room as I wanted to follow the SIDS guides and have him sleep in the same room I was in, or close by. At 10 wks my DS refused to sleep. We had a rough couple of days and in desperation I took him to his night bed as he was still going down brilliantly and falling to sleep happy and independently at night.  He appeared to relax the moment we entered the room and I kind of just put him down in his bed and he smiled and went to sleep! Total shock for me.  I think you might be now trying the cot for naps and have a similarly successful BT put down.  Are you finding the cot more helpful?

2. He has started fighting against the swaddle really hard. He has been swaddled since birth, but it was never an issue before. Now sometimes he is calm, then as soon as I start to wrap him he starts crying and thrashing. What's up?
I think some just get fed up with the swaddle. I also stopped swaddling mine at 10 wks. He had been swaddled for naps only until then, not at night as he had a baby hammock which does not allow swaddling for safety reasons.  If he is fighting the swaddle he could be trying to tell you he is not ready to sleep as he sees it as a cue to sleep time or he might just like the freedom of movement - what is your instinct or thought on this?  There is no rule that he must be swaddled, it's just it helps some babies sleep better.

What is your aim with naps?  Do you want him in the cot now?  Are you putting him down in the cot for all sleeps now or just some?
Have you persevered with shush/pat or have you started to adapt your soothing method to calm him for sleep?  FWIW I think a jiggle with a firm hand in the cot is fine, I did with mine, he didn't like patting, and it felt kind of like the movement of a car.

Finally - it's quite hard to work out your first A time because there is that period of co-sleeping where you say you are not sleeping but snoozing. It's really hard to tell if he is getting a super long A time or a short A time before his first nap.  It would be helpful to know if/when he sleeps or we could work on a set morning nap time regardless of WU time I suppose but it would be a bit of a guess.

sorry I don't have all the answers just yet but perhaps together we can figure something out? :)


Offline jkitiara

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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2016, 18:28:54 pm »
I can't quite figure out how to "quote" things, but I answered some questions below. Thanks for your insight!

----A few questions:
- Are you finding the shorter A time helpful or do you feel it has made things harder either in terms of getting him to go to sleep or how long he sleeps for?

It's hard to tell, honestly. But today I sort of ignored all his times and just ran errands and such and it was definitely harder to get him to fall asleep when he was awake longer. However no matter what I do, he never sleeps longer than 30 min, even if I'm positive he's not OT.
- Are you finding the longer calmer wind down helpful now or is it harder to get him to calm and go to sleep?  I think I have a better handle on the wind down and what to do. I start by holding him for a few minutes out of the bedroom, then go in, pull shades, turn on noise machine, and a play a lullabye (this is way better than singing to him, which he finds too exciting).
- Is he on medication for the reflux? What meds?
Ranitidine syrup, which I think is liquid baby Zantac
-If possible please continue to record your EAS times as accurately as possible as it's one of the few things we have to go on when offering support on routine.
I'll try to upload another day's worth tomorrow.
-If he is fighting the swaddle he could be trying to tell you he is not ready to sleep as he sees it as a cue to sleep time or he might just like the freedom of movement - what is your instinct or thought on this? 
I don't think he is telling me he's not ready to sleep--the more tired he is the harder he fights! But maybe wants more freedom. I've started swaddling with one arm out at night because he's getting very close to rolling over anyways. I tried that with naps today, but he jumped himself awake at least twice so I stopped. He's always been a very jumpy baby. We also have a Merlin sleep suit but I haven't tried it yet.

-What is your aim with naps?  Do you want him in the cot now?  Are you putting him down in the cot for all sleeps now or just some?
I put him down in it for every nap, but because they only last 30 min, I often pick him up right away when he wakes (I give him plenty of time to fall back asleep again--it's only happened twice in the last week) and let him sleep another hour in my arms. Otherwise I wind up trying to put down an increasingly exhausted baby for 5 or more naps. I did it one day and nearly cried!

-Have you persevered with shush/pat or have you started to adapt your soothing method to calm him for sleep?  FWIW I think a jiggle with a firm hand in the cot is fine, I did with mine, he didn't like patting, and it felt kind of like the movement of a car.
Shush/pat just seems back-breaking for me and has never done much for him. Once or twice if I catch him while he's only half awake I can lay a hand on his chest and put another over his eyes and he has drifted off again.


-Finally - it's quite hard to work out your first A time because there is that period of co-sleeping where you say you are not sleeping but snoozing. It's really hard to tell if he is getting a super long A time or a short A time before his first nap.  It would be helpful to know if/when he sleeps or we could work on a set morning nap time regardless of WU time I suppose but it would be a bit of a guess.

I agree! I will try to either fully let him nap or keep him awake for this and see what changes.

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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2016, 17:46:31 pm »
I can't quite figure out how to "quote" things
If you click and drag to highlight the section you'd like to quote, once highlighted you can click on "Quote (selected)" which is to the top right of the text window.  Donít worry - you will find you way around soon.

Is he on medication for the reflux? What meds?
Ranitidine syrup,
Have you had the dosage checked recently?  Ranitidine goes by LOs weight and some ar on lower dose and some higher so sometimes it needs altering. If you have any suspicion at all that the reflux might be bothering him I'd get it checked.

I put him down in it for every nap
So at the beginning of every nap he goes into the cot awake but drowsy? Is that right?  Then falls to sleep on his own?

have you tried W2S (wake to sleep)?
Have a read of this (look at naps option 1) and see what you think. It can be really useful for LOs who can't yet transition from one sleep cycle to the next on their own and need a bit of help...but it also works towards more independence rather than sleeping in arms for the second part of the nap.  if his naps tend to be 30 mins I suggest you begin W2S at 20-25 mins rather than the time given in the FAQ.  You may be able to help him through into the next cycle but then leave him for another 25 mins and check if another W2S is needed.  It's more work in the short term as you have to keep going back in but longer term it teaches self settling and to sleep longer rather than sleeping in arms.
You could pick one nap per day to use it on perhaps? (you can adapt the W2S so that you are using a firm hand or slight jiggle rather than shush/pat if needed).  With W2S you would do it for 3 days in a row then observe day 4 to see what happens, run another cycle of 3 days again if he woke mid nap. etc.


Offline jkitiara

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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2016, 00:15:03 am »
have you tried W2S (wake to sleep)?
I tried this two days ago and it worked! Slept for another 30 min after I did it. Then I tried yesterday and today and it didn't. BOO. I haven't read much about it though. I'm not sure if I'm waking him up enough or at the right time or what. I'll try to find the area you're talking about. I did read the wake to sleep section in the BW questions book, but that was more about night sleep I think.

So I figured out that it's not exactly the swaddle he's fighting--it's all of naptime. We have a naptime routine and he has definitely figured it out! But instead of winding down and getting sleepy, he seems too think "Oh no! We're going into the bedroom! That means she's going to make me sleep! Oh no she's turning the lights down now, better cry so she knows I don't want to!"

Any suggestions on a little one who seemed triggered in a bad way by nap routine? When I sing to him it makes him happy and smiley and possibly too excited, so I stopped doing it and now just play a lullabye. He seemed to like it in the beginning.

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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2016, 12:43:45 pm »
Oh dear I'm so sorry I didn't link the W2S for you - I intended to
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Like I said before, look at the naps option 1. You don't wake him for this version of the method but help him through the transition.

You need to keep in mind that if you are successful in extending the nap (either W2S or another method, even if APOP - accidental parenting on purpose ie holding, rocking etc) then the next A time might need to be a bit longer to be tired enough for the next nap.

better cry so she knows I don't want to!"
It could be he is saying he is not tired enough yet. He is a bit older now so that needs to be taken into account, plus like I said above, if naps are a bit longer than he can stay awake a bit longer.

Do you put him down before he falls to sleep?  Is he able to fall asleep independently now?


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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2016, 18:51:10 pm »
If anything, I would think he was over, not under tired, seeing as how he only manages to take 30 min naps. The screaming used to get progressively worse over the day, but today it started with nap #2. He went down calmly for nap #1.

Our morning went:
7:15 wake
8:00 eat (he eats only 3-4 oz at a time to help with excessive spit up)
8:50-9:20 sleep
9:45 eat
10:45 screams while I try to get him to nap. Gave up and let him be awake. He was red-eyed but calm until 11:15am. Then he started to get grumpy. Tried to put him down again. Screamed more. Shushing loudly doesn't quiet him like it used to when he was a newborn.
11:45 Gave up and put him in swing

Thanks for the link! I tried nap option 1 before and only got it to work once, but I think that was almost a month ago, so it could go completely differently this time. I'll try again this week.

He goes down barely awake for naps. If he is too awake, he just won't do it, though I've had some success lately with covering his eyes if they are just half closed and patting his chest. He's never completely asleep though. And for bedtime I can set him down wide awake and he settles himself easily.

Offline jkitiara

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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2016, 22:00:20 pm »
Went down for nap #3 at 2:55, a full 2.5 hrs after his last nap ended. He was happy and smiley and only fought a little once in my arms. Was fine with the swaddle.
The big difference here is we were out in the sun in the stroller for a long time before. He always stays calm in the stroller no matter how tired (but will never fall asleep) and seems to be able to retain that calm even when he's clearly exhausted.
But maybe you were right and he needs to get a little more tired before each nap? I was so sure the grumpies meant overtiredness, plus he doesn't take full restful naps.
This kid is tough to figure out.

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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2016, 07:37:46 am »
The first nap looks okay time wise even though he short napped. 1hr 35 isn't too far off a guidance A time. I could be that an additional 10 mins may help though.
The second nap looks a bit UT to me. 1hr 25 A time.  Some people do find that after a short nap LO needs a reduced A time and if it works then it works, but as your LO protested, I would be tempted to go to 1hr 35 or 1hr 45 despite the short nap.  I noticed with my DS and have seen some threads where LOs seem to need a full A time even after a short nap, as though they think they had a full nap.
I think your LO is approaching 4 months now? The A time will be somewhere around 1hr 45 to 2hrs, but also handy to know that some LOs are considerably outside the guidance times.


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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2016, 00:25:54 am »
The A time will be somewhere around 1hr 45 to 2hrs, but also handy to know that some LOs are considerably outside the guidance times.
Thank you for the advice! It seems he was ready to jump right up to 2 hr A times, mostly being happy.

We are still struggling with "setting the scene" or wind down. He basically starts crying as soon as I start anything that looks like our old nap routine--turning on noise machine, turning off lights, getting into sleepsuit, lullabyes, etc.
The past week I basically put him in his sleep suit and whisk him off to the swing before he can cry too much. When his eyes droop, I stop the swing and transfer to his bassinette.
Today he cried when I put him in the swing though! I'm in a bit of a panic as to what we'll do next. The swing was our last resort. He will no longer calm in my arms any more. He will sleep in stroller or carrier if I move constantly. I just can't do that for 4-5 hrs a day!
I'm curious as to what BW says about this issue. I can't really tell.

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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2016, 07:01:47 am »
Have you tried skipping the swing and going directly to the bassinet?
When mine was 10 wks old he suddenly wouldn't sleep in the family room in the travel cot any more but I discovered he would go right to sleep if I took him upstairs to his night bed for the nap.  I was caught off-guard really as I'd expected him to sleep in the travel cot in the family room for his first 6 months but he had other ideas.
I know your LO is older, just wondering though if he'd go down better with a very short wind down and straight into his cot/bassinet?
Depending how long you had the A time increased he might be ready for another 10 mins now.


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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2016, 23:02:16 pm »
Just wanted to share some positive progress--my LO rolled over last week, so I wondered if he was old enough for PU/PD. After a few false starts, it totally worked! I can get him to fall asleep consistently in under 20 min. Sometimes he doesn't even cry.

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Re: Advice on our EASY schedule - sort of working...
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2016, 08:04:19 am »
Wow rolling already!
Wonderful to hear there is some sleep going on too!! Yay!