4 months bedtime battle, 30 min waking after initial falling asleep

[marcat]

DD is 4M1W, we're (trying) using 4H EASY. Here is an approximate schedule of our day:

Wake up: 730am
Eat: 8am
A: 8am-930am
S: 930am-10am

Wake up: 1130am
Eat: 12pm
A: 12pm-130pm
S: 130pm-2pm

Wake up: 330pm
Eat: 4pm
A: 4pm-7pm
S: somewhere b/w 530pm-6pm

Bedtime routine:
Bath: 7pm
Eat: 7-7:30pm
cuddle/book/song: 730pm
S: 730-8pm

8pm-7:30am sleep
twice night time eating: 1030pm & 230am
I don't purposely do dreamfeed, she wakes up for both feedings.

We've changed to the 4H schedule since she was 4 months old. She simply doesn't want to nurse until 4 hours after her last nursing. Even so, she doesn't nurse much -- about 4-5 mins one single side each time. However, she eats much more during her night eating -- about 10 mins each side, both side each time.
Up till now, I think I can still handle two wakings during the night. Although, I'd prefer her eating more during the day than the night.


Her main problems are:
1/ bedtime battle, at both nap and night sleep time. I tried taking her into her bedroom to winddown 1.25 hour/1.5 hour/1.75 hour/2 hour/2.25 hour after her last waking up. She consistently protests it. The moment we enter her room and do the sleep routine -- curtain down, listen to light music, she already starts to cry. Normally she starts to fuss about 1.25 hour after she last wakes up. I normally hold her and carry her around the house, not stimulate her much.
She recently become battling against sleep since about two weeks ago. Before that, after the curtain/music/door routine, I put her down in the crib, shush-pat her to sleep. She was all calm through it. Now, no matter when I bring her into her room, she'd start crying 1 min after, and it's really hard to calm her down, and normally she has to cry 15-20 mins before she finally falls asleep. I've tried leaving her alone crying, sitting beside her when she is crying, soothing her with holding/patting/white noise when she's crying, basically nothing works. Soothing does work, but as I put her down again, she starts to cry again and it just lengthens the process.
2/ She used to wake up 30 min after initial falling asleep, both naps and night sleep. Since a week ago, she taught herself to sleep on her tummy, she is able to transit the 30 min waking during daytime naps. However, she still cannot handle it during the night sleep. If she falls asleep 8pm, she would wake up at 830pm and has to be soothed back to sleep. After that, she's able to sleep till 1030pm/11pm. The main difference between naps/night sleep is that my husband does her sleep routine before night sleep while I take care of her nap routine.


Please help.

[jessmum46]

Hi, so am I right in thinking that the main issue is the waking up after bedtime?  Often that is a sign of going to bed a bit overtired, so perhaps try either a longer 3rd nap (if she will take one) or bring her bedtime back to more like 7.30pm and see if that helps. Really although she is protesting her sleeps it looks like she is doing really well overall if she is getting 2 1.5-2h naps and a catnap   It could be the 4 months sleep regression and it may be that it is something you just need to ride out.  Or it may be that she is one of those babies who just has a lot to 'say' before going off to sleep.  When she cries, is it an all-out sobbing upset cry or do you think it could be a loud mantra cry?  What’s a mantra cry?

Perhaps you could record the next day or two for us in terms of when you first try for sleep, when she goes off and how long she sleeps, and that may give us some clues as subtle differences of 15 mins or so from the ideal day posted can mean a lot for some LOs

[marcat]

Thanks for your suggestions.

This is yesterday update:
2nd nap,
wake 11am,
eat 1130am,
start to wind down, 1230 gradually from living room to bedroom, music only,
1250 curtain down, door closed, into crib, start to cry………white noise, pat...battle, cry on and off as I soothe her,
105 stop crying and fall asleep in 1-2 mins
she napped for 2 hours

3rd nap,
wake up at 3pm,
eat at 315pm,
start wind down 445,
curtain down 505, in crib, calm for 1 min, start crying really hard, soothe 5 min,
510pm fall asleep
she napped for 1 hour this time


night sleep,
wake up 6pm,
bath 7pm
eat 710pm
book 720
put into crib 725
730 fall asleep, but very light according to DH. He had to pat her for an hour hour since she startled from time to time
she slept till 11pm for a night eating

[marcat]

Today's update:

2nd nap
wake 1030
eat 1100
start wind down, 1150
the moment we entered bedroom, she started crying, had to distract her
put into crib 1210
playing alone till 1220, start to cry
soothe till 1230 calm dowb, crying on and off 1220-1230
She slept 1.25h

3rd nap
wakes 1345
eat 1400
start wind down 1515
put into crib 1530
cry, sooth 3 min, fall asleep
she slept 30 mins

My question is if there is a way to put her down without crying?
She used to fall asleep on her own. I mean after minutes of WD, I put her in her crib, she doesn't cry, she sucks her hands, or anything else to soothe herself, and fall asleep. It may take a few minutes, or ten minutes, or even 15 or 20 mins, but the whole process is peaceful (sometimes with mantra cry).
The problem right now is that no matter when I put her in her crib (usually after 15-20 WD quiet time), she starts to cry. Having to hear her sobbing sadly (loud & high-pitch, definitely different from mantra cry that she used to give) each time makes me feel guilty and uncomfortable. Shall I adjust my expectations to that she must cry every time she goes into her crib?


Night sleep
Wakes up 410pm (30 mins nap)
Bath 530pm
Eat 535pm
Fall asleep 550pm
She wakes again 30min after she fall asleep. Shall we try making her go to sleep even earlier?

[creations]

She may actually have a phase where she needs to have a cry to tell you all about her thoughts before she goes to sleep. It isn't necessarily for ever but a phase of development. I wouldn't leave her if she is like this.
Sometimes these crying/screaming sessions before nap are due to them being OT or UT but your routine looks okay and naps are good so it's probably not worth tweaking your A times much as it could result in short naps which isn't going to help.  Sometimes though baby just has an awful lot to "say" as Katherine mentioned.

One thing I discovered with my DS, he was independent sleeper like your DD, when I tried to give him too long a WD he really protested.  It was like he was saying "I want to make full use of my A time thanks, don't be singing to me for ages!" and "Yes yes I know how to go to sleep just put me in the cot would you!"  My instinct was to hold him *longer* because he was crying but when I tried a different approach and just put him in the cot when he protested he stopped crying right away and smiled as though he was thinking "Ah! Finally you have listened to me!"
I don't know if you want to have a go at the same A time but really reducing the WD time. And maybe say to her "I'm going to guess you just want to get into bed quickly so I'll put you down so you can sleep" - if it doesn't work you can always pick her up again and nothing lost yk?
Mine did rather a lot of crying to tell us he wanted his bed, if you didn't get him in there fast and just leave him to it he would not stop screaming.  I even rowed with his Nana over this, she said he needed food or a paci, I said he is screaming for his bed (she was trying to make him sleep in her arms for selfish reasons), I put him in his cot, he stopped crying and went to sleep.

My question is if there is a way to put her down without crying?

Maybe not, no. But if it turns out she is like my DS then you can likely massively reduce it or avoid it by getting the WD/PD timing right.

[jessmum46]

I agree with Creations, I think perhaps the wind down is too long and when you first take her up she could well be saying 'hey, I'm not tired yet!!'  One of mine would definitely have protested hard if I took her up any more than 5 mins or so before when I expected her to be asleep.  For both of mine at that young age the only wind down we did was up to room, low lights, into sleeping bag, quick cuddle and song and straight down into bed.  If I'd been aiming for 2h A time I wouldn't have even gone up to her room until 1h50-55 as any earlier would have led to much more crying, but going up at that time led to an easy quick settle x

[marcat]

LOL, her WD was like 5 mins...then she started this "talking" (really loud/crazy though), and I lengthened the WD time in respond, thinking probably she needed more time. I went back to 5 min WD, she cried the same:(.
I think I'll just accept that fact that she'd cry when I put her into the crib and then calm her with shush/pat. She's learning crawling, I'll see how much longer she'd stay there allowing me to pat her.
Thanks moms.

[creations]

I wonder, did the shorter WD with the same crying end up being a longer A time?  Just wondering if it meant the whole process took less or more time overall.

[jessmum46]

Yes also wondering this