5 month old EASY - long post, confused parent

[Lula2185]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum so I apologise if there's a thread about this already. If anyone could then redirect me I'd be grateful! 
Thank youuuu in advance to whoever will take the time to read this horribly long post to help this very sleep deprived mum (and dad).

So, somewhere along the way I had gotten out of the routine and never managed to get back into it fully. It ended up in a baby led day with phases of consistency and others that were just chaotic and full of over-tiredness. To start off I have just read the 'Solves all your Problems' book and I think my baby is a Touchy/Spirited one. These past 5 months have never been easy at all, especially with sleep issues. And just like tired and misinformed parents that we were (plus a very sensitive baby who would just sleep in our arms from day 1 at home, wake up as soon as she was settled down in the pram, and wake up even if the floorboard creaked slightly) we ended up with instances of accidental parenting to help us get through. Toss that in with several issues regarding breastfeeding and everything was a mess. One thing that was constant was the fact that her last feed was always a bottle of formula whereby we got a longer stretch of sleep, anywhere between 4 to 6 hours). Also, we had to swaddle as baby kept waking herself up with her startle reflex.

Around 3.5 months we noticed a HUGE regression when it came to sleep, not even going 3 hours in the initial stretch of night. She was also starting to get out of the swaddle. Swaddle was removed at this time since we were already not getting any sleep! Also bedtime was moving gradually earlier from 8:45/9 to 8/7:30 and wake up time earlier (as early as 5am). Now she will start getting fussy 6:30/7 and she wakes up at 6am. However, in between, there are numerous night wakings!!

So to try and make thing simpler, I will try to list how it used to be to now:

Before:

6:30am - Wake time
8: Nap (40m-1hr)
9am - Bottle (4-5oz)
10:30am - Nap (anywhere from 45min-3hrs)
12/1pm - Bottle of Expressed Milk (4-5oz)
1:30/2:30 - Nap (30min-1hr)
4/4:30pm - Bottle (4-5oz)
5:30/6 - Nap (30min-45)
6:30/7 - Bath + Routine
8/8:30 - Bedtime
1-3am - Bottle (6oz.)

All of the above are just averages as no one day was the same, except for bottles give or take 30 mins. Also, sleep times varied from getting 3hrs to 5hrs of daytime sleep, mostly after becoming overtired, then fighting bedtime. She could only stay awake not longer than 1.25hrs and even that was late). On bad nights I woke up 10-15 times to replug dummy or quiet her down from excessive babbling, squealing and thrashing around. Sometimes, I had to resort to the rocker in the living room as it was easier to rock her in it than in my arms (my bad!).

Now we're trying to take control and instill a routine again:

6/6:15 - Wake up
6:30 - Bottle (5-6oz.) - working towards this as at the moment she is having the bottle at 7:15 due to late last bottle
8-10 - Nap (2hrs) - extending this when she wakes up before by telling her time to sleep and replugging dummy) - had to wake
10:30 - Bottle of Expressed Milk + at times Formula (5oz + 1oz at times. still at around 10:45-11:15)
12-2 - Nap (2hrs) - extending this when she wakes up before by telling her time to sleep and replugging dummy) - had to wake. was fussy
2:30 - Bottle (today seemed to only be able to go 3.5 hrs with 5oz + 1oz.) - stayed fussy and became overtired immediately
by 3:15 was very fussy and had to start wind down
still took till 3:55 - Nap (had to shush pat and give dummy multiple times to calm down. multiple wakings)
so now today I'm left with (5hrs of daytime sleep) and 2 hours to go till bedtime (trying at 7pm) which will surely be horrible since she could barely stay awake after her 2nd 2 hour nap)
6:00/6:15 - bath
6:30/6:45 - trying for a bottle (5-6oz.)
Bedtime routine + bedtime - 7
I don't know if I should wake for last bottle or see whether she wakes up around 11/12 by herself.

We are also trying to figure out a way to reduce her night wakings as it is just ludicrous. Most times I can just give her the dummy and she will resettle for the initial part of the night. Worst part is 3:30/4am onwards. I think it must be when we would have done the most accidental parenting, plus her sleep drive is so bad at that time (it's bad during the day when any noise can wake her). Last night I did shush pat and pu/pd for an hour, then she slept from 5 to 6. Was considering wake to sleep. I really feel that apart from the parenting no-no's, the dummy is really a massive problem but baby really doesn't know how to sleep without it (thanks to some very pushy midwives and paeds I caved as before she barely used a dummy - but that was another issue of suckling).

Now I know this is such a long post, and to be truthful, I can hardly see whether I have mentioned everything or if it's too much info. I also think I may have changed her routine too abruptly and confused her a bit. I am also trying to get her to have longer wake times, but it is easier before the morning and mid-morning nap, then I think everyting catches up and she's a wreck! Maybe going from 1.5 to 2hrs wake time in such a short period is asking too much of her but I have no idea how the day will progress if I can't stick to a 4hr routine.
I'm just wondering whether some kind-hearted soul can help me look at the issue with a fresh pair of eyes and maybe some advice!

Also, we have recently moved her from the crib to the big cot as it was getting too tight and she seemed to take to it well, but still wakes up multiple times.

PS: Hubby and I barely have any semblance of a life left. We have to go to bed at her bedtime due to 1. barely getting any sleep 2. she doesn't stay in the room alone (she sleeps in our room) 3. we cannot do anything anyway as any sound from the living area is audible (we live in a flat).

[Lindsay27]

Hi hun! Just a quick note to say welcome and that I've seen this and will respond properly later on when my LOs are in bed

[Lindsay27]

Sorry it took me so long!  So first things first, welcome to BW!  You are going to find a lovely and supportive community here!

I think you are headed in the right direction with extending the A times.  Around 5/6 months most LOs start to transition to 2 naps so extending and keeping on top of the A times is key, at a minimum you would be aiming for a 2hr A time, but likely more...I would maybe aim for 2.15hr. Here are some helpful links to scan over:

Sample EASY Routines from 0 - 13mths+
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

so now today I'm left with (5hrs of daytime sleep) and 2 hours to go till bedtime (trying at 7pm) which will surely be horrible since she could barely stay awake after her 2nd 2 hour nap)

I think this might be the culprit for the NWs - 5hrs of daytime sleep is a lot at this age.  I would say most are around the 3-3.5hr level.  LOs can get fussy for a number of reasons and it doesn't necessarily mean they are tired, sometimes they need a change in stimulation/activity, or they are simply just frustrated with something.  I found this stage particularly hard for my DD until she was able to sit up independently, she was often angry and fussy.

Most times I can just give her the dummy and she will resettle for the initial part of the night. Worst part is 3:30/4am onwards. I think it must be when we would have done the most accidental parenting, plus her sleep drive is so bad at that time (it's bad during the day when any noise can wake her).

Do you think it's possible the paci is a prop?  Can she sleep without it if it falls out?  Also, do you have any white noise?  A fan, sound machine etc. can be helpful to drown out daytime noise so that LOs isn't constantly waking.

Hopefully this helps a little bit

[Lula2185]

Thank you for replying!
To be honest I got the nap times from the book 
Since she has just transitioned from 4 to 3 naps a few weeks ago when she could only last 1h15 A time, I highly doubt she will be dropping the 3rd catnap anytime soon. It's very difficult to lengthen her A time as she is highly sensitive and gets overtired so easily. Then I still end up with a lot of NWs.
I will definitely have a look at the links. I have to figure out how to get her to have a full bottle after she wakes up as at the moment we're a bit stuck.
As for the dummy, she will almost always spit it out during light sleep..or it falls out...and most times she will stay asleep for a cycle or 2. It's just that when she wakes up she cannot go to sleep without it. I swear it's like a switch most timed..she'll be chatting up a storm in her cot then plug in and 'hey i'm sleepy' lol

[Lindsay27]

How long are you going between feeds? The best thing you can do is keep ahead of the A times and make sure they are age appropriate.  It may seem like she gets OT very easily but it is probably a case of that she's used to heading down for a nap much earlier, so pushing A times is going to be a shock to her system and she is going to be a little OT, but in the end it is the best thing you can do.  I think she's having so many NW because she's getting too much day sleep, and she wants to sleep lots during the day because she's up all night, so it's a never ending cycle that perpetuates itself.  And longer A times means longer between feeds and therefore bigger/better feeds. 

Something to aim for:

WU 6:15
Nap 8:30-10
Nap 12:15-1:45
CN 4-4:30
BT 6:30

[Lula2185]

We were doing 4hrs between feeds no problem, apart from when she has her bottle of expressed milk as she gets hungry before 4hrs go by, or it depends if she has an extra oz of formula, in which case then she would do the 4hrs. But all of a sudden she started mixing times and amounts again. Might have been teething yesterday but she only drank 20/21oz which is not good for her age and weight (5 months, 6.8kgs  - around 15lbs).
Yesterday she did:

WU: 6:10
Nap: 8-9:30
Nap: 12-2
Nap: 4:15-5:15
BT: 7:15/7:30
Bottles were all over the place and small amounts
NW too many to count, and just playing with her feet in her cot and yawning constantly. When she slept less during the day she was OT and NW were still happening. When she slept more it's the same. Cannot seem to catch a break with both sleep and bottles. Paed told me it was due to the fact that she was a breastfed baby so she got used to feeding on demand during the first months so she regressed back.

Since she woke up so many times to just play and drank much less than usual I had to give her another bottle during the night (so 2). She then drank 6oz then 2oz from the 2nd one so she wasn't even that hungry at 4am. She doesn't even cry when she wakes up, just plays. But I can hear her yawning repeatedly. I just cannot let her play for an hour everytime she wakes up during the night. Then at 4 it was an hour till she fell asleep and woke up at 5:44, slept again at 6 woke up 6:30. She took her first nap at 8 anyway. I gave her a 4.5oz bottle at 7:30 as she was not hungry when she woke up but she was not able to settle for her nap without it. I feel like just giving up. The more I try to get her on a bit of a routine, the more things go south.

Also I don't think she can do almost 12hrs at night or a total of 15hrs+ per day. She ranges more from 12 to 14hr in total, and she doesn't seem to be able to switch the hours from the day to the night. This started happening more when she started transitioning to 3 naps per day as she moved her bedtime earlier. I did wake her up these past 4 days from naps and she's just sooo fussy! I'm really scared she'll flip over the days and nights soon.

[Lindsay27]

Might have been teething yesterday but she only drank 20/21oz which is not good for her age and weight (5 months, 6.8kgs  - around 15lbs).

I'll double check but I think the minimum amount of ounces per day is 18, so if she's within that I wouldn't stress too much.  My DD has never taken more than 24oz in a day, and usually averaged at that age around 20/21, and she is perfectly healthy   As long as they are maintaining their growth curve no need to worry

Since she woke up so many times to just play and drank much less than usual I had to give her another bottle during the night (so 2). She then drank 6oz then 2oz from the 2nd one so she wasn't even that hungry at 4am. She doesn't even cry when she wakes up, just plays. But I can hear her yawning repeatedly. I just cannot let her play for an hour everytime she wakes up during the night.

"Happy" NW as we like to call them - so long night wakings that are chatty/playing - is usually a indicator that LO is UT, so undertired, meaning too much day sleep and not enough A time.  Looking at her day yesterday it looks like she got about 4.5hrs of day sleep, so what I would do is push that first A time to a minimum of 2hrs (but ideally more like 2.15), and cap the late afternoon CN.  That should push her entire day out, reduce day sleep, and increase A time which will all help with the NW.

[Lula2185]

Ok, so today has been horrible!

Yesterday I put her down for her 1st nap and she self-settled immediately after 1h40 WT. She slept for 45 mins so I said let me push it a bit more today so she wouldn't be UT and sleep longer. It turned out to be so horrible...given that I do not know her exact morning WT as she woke up so many times from 4am onwards, I looked for her tired cues and pushed 5 mins extra. She became a nightmare to get to sleep, had to rock her in my arms to calm down, almost till she was asleep (there goes all the work I've been doing). I think her wake time ended up being in the 2.5hrs region by the time she slept, but she slept 1h30m. She woke up and I think she would have slept a bit longer but she saw us and her drive to sleep just vanished, but her grumpiness did not.

We had to go out and I tried to rush back home for her 2nd nap, only she slept 10m in the car and noises kept waking her up. By the time we got home, she did not want to go to sleep again. I thought let me just have lunch and it won't be long till she shows tired signs again. I think she was too far gone from the whole 2nd 10 min nap fiasco...she was going to settle then just jolted back and nothing was working. She ended up crying, I ended up crying, husband ended up angry and just told me to let her cry (which I didn't do as I am so against it). 2h20m after her wake time (if I can take into consideration those 10m) she slept in my arms (the get her very drowsy and putting her down thing was not working now). She's been asleep for 25m now.

I am so ready for today to be over!

I know that we are stuck in this cycle, where I try to get her to stay awake for longer because I know she is getting too much day sleep and is affecting her night sleep, but everything just keeps backfiring.
Yesterday was a fairly good day but sleep time still stacked up to 4hrs..it went like this:

WT: 7
1st nap: 8:40-9:25, got her to sleep for a further 5m (yay  ) from 9:40-9:45
2nd nap: 11:40-14:10 (I let her sleep in to make up for 1st nap being short and to get her to the cn)
CN: 4:10-4:50 (again was very difficult to calm her down - but not crying)
Bed: she was fussy from 6:30 but had to give her bottle at 7 so I put her to be at 7:20, she was asleep by 7:30
she slept to 12 (gave dummy once), gave bottle, then it took her a while to sleep and slept from 1 to 4:11 (her usual habitual wakening) then after that it was waking up every 15/20m..

I just don't know how I'm going to get her to sleep less during the day, stay awake longer, lengthen her naps if she wakes up happy (and she rarely wakes up crying no matter how much she sleeps). I swear the more I try to get her into a routine, the worse it's becoming. So ready to give up. I just feel like I can never get in control of the situation..if I get close, something just goes terribly wrong...like self-settling for her naps, and now everything's back to how it was before, fighting her to get to sleep)

[Lindsay27]

I think her wake time ended up being in the 2.5hrs region by the time she slept, but she slept 1h30m.

I really think this is about where her A times 'should' be hun, and the fact that she gave you a 1.5hr nap afterwards probably indicates that this was around the appropriate time for her.  Sometimes LOs show tired cues when they need a change in stimulation or activity, as they get older the typical cues become much less reliable.  All of the crying before the nap could have simply been because she wasn't ready to sleep yet.

I know that we are stuck in this cycle, where I try to get her to stay awake for longer because I know she is getting too much day sleep and is affecting her night sleep, but everything just keeps backfiring.
Yesterday was a fairly good day but sleep time still stacked up to 4hrs

Pushing the first A time (your other As throughout the day seem to be okay) is what is going to resolve this - by pushing the first A it will shift her entire day out and eliminate the CN.  Much of the 3-2 is very back and forth where some days you need the CN and others you don't.  When went through this with DD we had to push the first A right to 3hrs before she was even 6 months old...it was rough, but the OT naps were easier to resettle and once through it onto 2 full naps we stayed like that for several months.

Bed: she was fussy from 6:30 but had to give her bottle at 7 so I put her to be at 7:20, she was asleep by 7:30
she slept to 12 (gave dummy once), gave bottle, then it took her a while to sleep and slept from 1 to 4:11 (her usual habitual wakening) then after that it was waking up every 15/20m..

Do you feed at that 4am waking at all?  Have you ever done a DF?  I'm wondering if you did a DF if it would eliminate the midnight waking and allow her to go through to 4am, and then feed again at 4.