Author Topic: night Wakings upto 10x a night.  (Read 3543 times)

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Offline Erica_a80

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night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« on: October 25, 2016, 06:54:48 am »
Hi everyone.
I am new to this forum but I have recently started reading the BW books and would like some advice.
My 8 month old has never slept through the night. He once slept 7 hours but that was a one off. Up until recently I was breastfeeding him during the night every 2 hours, I have managed to get that down to 1 feed just at midnight. He still wakes between 4 and 10 times each night. I would like to try the pu/pd method but am unsure how to do it.  I attempted it one night and it made his crying worse until he was hyperventilating, so I abandoned it.
When he wakes during the night I often put the dummy in, sometimes offer him water, sometimes have to rock him to sleep. Sometimes he is awake for over an hour.
So if I have read correctly from the book at his age when he wakes, if he is crying I would go in, offer to pick him up, cradle him horizontally and NOT wait for him to stop crying but put him down whilst he is crying? And then repeat until he (hopefully) stops?? He still has 3 naps in the daytime I am trying to transition that to two.
His day looks like this
Awake at 6 BF on waking
Breakfast at 7:30
Asleep at 9-10
Bottle on waking
Lunch at 11:45
Asleep 12-1:30
BF on waking
Asleep 4-4:30
Dinner at 5:30
Bath at 6:30
Bottle at 7 then bed.

Any help or suggestions greatly appreciated!!

Thanks

Erica x

Offline FPT23

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2016, 03:54:24 am »
Hi and congrats on the new baby and welcome to BWW! ;D

I'm so sorry you've had such a rough time! Hopefully some of our advice is useful :) we are all here to support one another :D

My first question to you is, has he ever slept independently? Naps included. Has he ever gone to sleep on his own without your intervening. That would include, nursing to sleep, holding, patting and staying in with him until he's asleep, constantly popping in the paci for him, singing, rocking to sleep, sleeping in the stroller/car seat,  etc. These are what we would call "props". How  does he fall asleep normally?

Secondly, my LO is 8 months as well and his A times are slightly longer. Majority of your A times fall between 2-2.5 hrs according to your EASY, except for his morning nap where it's about 3hrs. I would start by increasing the A time. You should be at 2 naps as you mentioned and that starts with pushing his A times. The more gentle way to do this is by pushing in 15 min increments and keep it there for 3-4 days allowing ur LO to adjust to the new A time... you want to do this for ONE of the A times; not push all of them at once. So, you may want to start with his first morning A time... aim to have him asleep by 9:15 instead of 9. Maybe it will help increase that nap length as well (ASSUMING he knows how to fall asleep independently). You will hold that new A time (give or take his morning WU) for 3-4 days, see how well he handles it and move on to perhaps his afternoon A time... etc. Here is the link to the 3-2 nap transition if you need further details :)

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

...along with...

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

As far as the NWs are concerned, does he know how to insert the paci on his own yet? The fact that he is up over an hour could mean he's under tired and that's why he needs that A time increase.

In all honesty, it sounds to me like he simply depends on you for sleep and you may want to begin some sleep training. I'm unfortunately not familiar with PU PD method but here is a link if you need some extra info:

Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!

...now, waking this often I would usually say discomfort or seperation anxiety as well. Teething... etc. All things to consider as well at this age BUT since you mentioned you've never had longer than a 7 hour stretch (only once), I think this is more needing and putting into effect a method of ST. Yes, it is hard and will be tiring. You must stay consistent to whatever method you choose. So long as you never leave baby crying alone, or a cry it out method since we are not very fond of such methods here on BWW.

Many hugs!
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 03:59:00 am by FPT23 »
Fabi






Offline Erica_a80

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2016, 12:04:33 pm »
Thank you for your reply!
He used to sleep independently for daytime naps up until recently. I used to be able to put him down awake in his cot with no dummy, say its time for a nap now, leave the room and he could drift off to sleep on his own. The last week or so I haven't been able to do this without the dummy, sometimes I'm unable to leave the room until he is asleep. As far as I'm aware I have not changed the way I put him down.
When we are in the car or in the pushchair he will fall asleep without the dummy.

Ok I can try upping his morning A time, what A time am I aiming for for the afternoon? The same?

He does know how to insert the pacifier on his own but chooses not to and waits for me to come and do it. I swear sometimes he even hands it to me to do it for him!!
Can I ask what types of sleep training I would be looking at? I literally have no idea where to start with all of this. I know I have created some extremely bad habits with his night waking and literally go to him at the first sound he makes. I guess I was quite anxious when he was born and when he made a noises during the night I was able to go and check he was ok. I am not keen on letting him cry when ~I' am not there, despite everyone telling me that would be the answer to my prayers, I would be heartbroken!

He is teething and I do give him powders and occasionally calpol when its particularly bad but he still wakes up frequently it doesn't settle him which makes me think it isn't the pain that is waking him but the habit and reassurance he is looking for from me to get him back to sleep.
Last night he went down at 7 and then woke at 10:20 until 1:20am. Every time I attempted to put him in his cot he would cry and I had to pick him up and rock him back to sleep.

Offline FPT23

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2016, 00:39:10 am »
Many hugs hun! Hmmm interesting he has stopped sleeping on his own.... but from what you tell me he relies on you always for NWs right? You said you've never had longer than 7hrs?

You can up whatever A time is easiest for you to start with. Personally, from your above EASY... I would leave the morning one for now and push the second A since your still under 3hrs. You want to reach closer to 3-3.5 by 9 months or so. So let's say you push the morning one to 3.15, the others leave them as is FOR NOW. After 3/4 days of his morning push move onto the next. I know it seems tedious but it's more gentle. OR you can jump right on in it and move All A times to 3hrs and for a few weeks opt for EBT to make up for the OT. I prefer slow and steady :)

Separation anxiety at this age is VERY common too! It subsides after a bit but it can be quite frustrating as baby refuses mom to leave.

As far as ST methods, again I'm the last to try them bc I've always followed BWW from the start and just never had to. However with DS1 he did rely on 1 NF until 9 months when I knew he didn't need it. I reduced an oz every few days... the day came of no milk and he was upset but all I did that night was stay with him and try and resettle with cuddles and love. It took a long time but I stayed that night w him trying to make him better. Mind you, he did not need that bottle anymore as he was way heavy and was barely only nibbling and fell asleep- he wasn't by even downing the bottle. It was a prop by then. Anyways, after that night he never woke for it again! Haha so I don't know. I never did any method. With DS2 he's been BWW from the start so he's been good.

I do know there's ways to remove props such as nursing and all that but you say you've addsesssed that and now don't nurse at nights? What do you do when he wakes? I do also feel his routine needs fixing FIRST before you try a ST method.

Xo
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 00:41:38 am by FPT23 »
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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2016, 08:13:19 am »
Hello, welcome to BW forums :)

I agree with FPT about increasing the A times during the day and moving to 2 naps. it can be a bit messy during the transition as on 2 naps you might need to put down early for BT whilst on 3 naps, with the longer A time, you might find BT being really very late. It is a transitional period though so if you keep your goal in sight and keep moving on you will get there.
Although you say he never slept a long stretch at night I do think the current difficulties sound like he is UT at night (under tired) and the refusal at nap time would also indicate this.

For now I would aim for:
WU 6
A 3hr 15
S 9.15 - 10.15 (or hopefully longer)
A 2hr 30 (move directly to 2hr 30 day 1, then increase to 2hr 45, then 3hr)
S 12.45 - 2.15
A 2hr 45
S 5.00 - 5.30 CN
A 2hr 30
BT 8 (temporary late BT until CN is dropped)
and if there is resistance at the 5pm CN I would abandon the attempt and move directly to BT routine aiming to have him asleep by 6pm. As the days go on you will hopefully see the two naps of a good length and no need for the CN, BT moves earlier. I would suggest you aim to be transitioned to 2 naps within a week to 10 days and not allow this transition period to drag out.

Here is a guidance routine to aim for:
WU 6
A 3hr 15
S 9.15 - 10.45
A 3hr 15
S 2 - 3.30
A 3hr
BT 6.30 (if any nap either shorter than 1.5hr then bring BT earlier)

So if I have read correctly from the book at his age when he wakes, if he is crying I would go in, offer to pick him up, cradle him horizontally and NOT wait for him to stop crying but put him down whilst he is crying? And then repeat until he (hopefully) stops??
Sounds like you have this right.  You can follow this method to the letter and be confident that by your being with your LO the stress levels are low.  Crying might actually be louder and last longer as LO protests to the new expectations but he is not abandoned and he knows he is safe. It is not a no-cry method.
You can keep a hand on him or rub or pat between the picking up so that he knows you are there, this additional comfort can be reduced and weaned once he is falling to sleep in the cot better.

Like FTP I do not have great experience in PUPD as my LO was self settling from a younger age, however I did use an adaptation of this method when I moved my LO from his baby hammock into his cot-bed and you might want to think about your personality, your LOs personality and how you initially taught him to self settle for naps and make some adaptations yourself.  My experience was that my LO was used to self settling and even found it hard to fall to sleep with me in the room but during this transition to the cot-bed he was very unsettled and crying. 3 nights of poor sleep. Mine was 9-10 months but I didn't put him down crying as per the method, I picked up and fully soothed in arms then put him down when calm and sleepy.
Each time I put him down he'd cry and scream again.
He eventually got to the point where he was SO tired that when I picked him up he fell to sleep almost instantly, like inside 30 seconds, by the time I had lifted him up to my body he was nodding off again but the second I put him down screaming.  I then positioned myself so that I was leaning into the cot, picked up but kept him horizontal and kept him inside the cot, a few cm from the mattress. He nodded almost instantly again. After a few times of this, him nodding off the second I picked him up, I put my hands on him and took his weight without lifting off the mattress. Next step put hands on him in the same position as if lifting but did not lift. He fell to sleep on his mattress.

When I say to consider your own personality etc, it is because PUPD is not a method to be taken lightly. It is hard work, it can be very noisy and test your patience and it is a method you need to commit to. If you give up half way through it doesn't teach LO anything and all the crying (and your won upset) is for nothing.
You might prefer to hold off a week whilst you get your routine in place and then look at how the self settling for naps is going and see what is happening with these NWs before you start the PUPD.

Sorry for so much info in one go. Hopefully this will help some.

Edited to add: PUPD is not an appropriate method to use whilst there is a paci prop. You can use PUPD and drop the paci at the same time but wouldn't be able to use PUPD and continue with the paci.
The other option is to continue with the paci but to use shush/pat to sleep train.  Tracy didn't recommend LOs fall asleep with the paci to avoid it becoming a prop but rather to let LO use the paci for the sucking reflex and then to remove before sleep.
Thanks to Ali for raising my attention to this  :-*
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 15:31:19 pm by creations »


Offline Erica_a80

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2016, 07:20:00 am »
Thank you to FPT23 and Creations for your warm responses.
I have made a few changes to his daytime routine taking on board the advice that you both gave to me.
Two nights in a row he only woke twice so I definately think his night wakings had something to do with his routine. However I moved all A times to at least 3 hours as I thought (stupidly) it would be better to get rid of the catnap straight away. His naps are now no longer than 45 mins each (due to him being overtired) and apart from those two nights he wakes at least 7 times a night. I keep sleep logs on his wakings and I did notice on the two nights he woke only twice his A times were 3.15, 3, 3.15. And his daytime naps totalled 2 hours and 15 mins. At the moment a typical day his A times are all at least 3.15.
My question is this......am I able to scale back on the A times so the middle one and last one is 3 hours? Or do I just need to keep with it now I've extended it?
We have just cut a first tooth so that could also be a contributor to the wakings but he doesn't wake in pain.

Also regards to the advice on PU/PD we have had one full week of no dummy use at night! I have been trying the PU/PD and as long as I'm persistent it is quicker to get him to resettle.

Looking forward to your advice ☺️.

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2016, 10:54:10 am »
I did notice on the two nights he woke only twice his A times were 3.15, 3, 3.15. And his daytime naps totalled 2 hours and 15 mins. At the moment a typical day his A times are all at least 3.15.
My question is this......am I able to scale back on the A times so the middle one and last one is 3 hours? Or do I just need to keep with it now I've extended it?
If the info from your records or a hunch you have is saying to reduce the A time then go for it :)
Keeping EASY logs can get some people bogged down with every little minute but if you look at the bigger picture as you are doing then logs can help to show up a pattern - I'd try it.
TBH 45 mins naps are not usually OT, they are more often UT (under tired) but I would try out your plan, follow your instinct, and then look at things again.  It needs more than 1 day, more like a week to see how things are settling down.

We have just cut a first tooth so that could also be a contributor to the wakings but he doesn't wake in pain.
Definitely.  The pain doesn't have to be tremendous to cause sleep disturbance, just low level niggling pain of tooth movement can also do that.  Mine had niggling pain he coped relatively well with (still woke him though) and then he had all out agony as the teeth cut. The cutting was usually only about 3 nights and I could really tell the difference in the end.


Also regards to the advice on PU/PD we have had one full week of no dummy use at night! I have been trying the PU/PD and as long as I'm persistent it is quicker to get him to resettle.
Wow! Great news!


Offline Erica_a80

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2016, 13:30:30 pm »
I think I will try reduce the A times to 3 hours and see how he goes. Sorry I should have been more specific, naps are sometimes only 30 mins, sometimes 45 minutes, I have to shush pat him to get him back to sleep at each nap. Sometimes after only being awake for two hours he shows signs of tiredness so I think I may have increased all A times way too quickly for him.
Did you medicate your child when the teeth were causing sleep disturbances? Because he isn't crying out in pain I'm unsure whether to or not.
Thank you again for replying, the advice on this forum and what you have given is invaluable to me, and has curbed my sanity... slightly!

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2016, 14:57:34 pm »
Did you medicate your child when the teeth were causing sleep disturbances? Because he isn't crying out in pain I'm unsure whether to or not.
I usually tried a pre BT med to see if it helped. If it did then I'd do that for a few days. At the worst times of cutting teeth I spaced paracetamol and ibuprofen across the day leaving a dose for BT and another for the night.
If you try meds and the NWs are no different then no need to give the next night really. But if it helps then it helps.

Sometimes after only being awake for two hours he shows signs of tiredness
At 8 months this is likely to be more a sign of needing to change activity or scene rather than real tiredness. If you move to a different room or offer a different toy, a song and dance or something you might see him perk up for another hour. Even having a little snack can help.
30 min naps are often thought of as OT, yes, but I'd say if it came after a 2hr A time it is more likely just dozing and UT.  There is also level of stimulation to take into account. If he had high stimulation (maybe a baby group, lots of toys, noise, people) and 3hr A time then the 30 min waking can be down to OS rather than OT.

Don't worry, you're not the first to feel unsure what you are doing, this parenting thing is hard, I never knew what I was doing!  BW forums helped me so much too. It is wonderful to have support here on all sorts of things and to have the shared wisdom of the many Mums (and a few Dads) from all over the world. A great community :)


Offline Erica_a80

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2016, 10:52:49 am »
Ok so just an update, both his naps are now no longer than 30 minutes in length unless I try and intervene and get him to sleep longer. All A times are at 3 hours and he is still waking at least 5-6 times a night. 8' not sure what to do now. He seems to want to go to sleep before the 3 hour mark as he lays his head on me and snuggles into me, sometimes he fights sleep during lunch.
I have tried calpol for his teeth but he still wakes just as much.

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2016, 18:58:05 pm »
sorry to hear things are not going so well.
Can you post a recent EASY please, as it happened, including the times he wakes at night.
Thanks


Offline Erica_a80

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2016, 07:47:48 am »
So yesterday and last night went like this
6:20 woke and breastfeed
E 7;30 breakfast
S 9:30-10:20 this was a good nap
E bottle
E 12:45 lunch
S 1:40-2:10 I then placed my hand on his tummy for a few mins and he went through to 3
E bottle
E 4:30 dinner
S bedtime 6:10

Nw 7:20 back to sleep at 9:50
Nw 11:40 back to sleep at 11:50
Nw 1:20 back to sleep at 1:45
Nw 3:30 back to sleep at 3:50
Nw 5:20 back to sleep 6:20
Woke at 6:30 unable to get back to sleep.

With the NW I go into him and say it's night night time lets go back to sleep.   Sometimes shushing helps sometimes hand on his tummy, sometimes pu/of

In terms of night wakings this was a good night for us it's sometimes 9-10 times.

Offline Erica_a80

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2016, 07:52:40 am »
That last bit was supposed to read pu/pd

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2016, 11:16:09 am »
E 4:30 dinner
S bedtime 6:10
Was there a BT bottle/BF in there too? That maybe you forgot to post?

That first NW which was 2.5hr long. What did you do in that time?  Was he crying the whole time? did you PU/PD or rock or feed? I'm just trying to get a picture of what's happening.

Have you ever suspected any reflux or silent reflux?  Have you looked at the list of symptoms to see if anything rings a bell for you?
Are there any medical or health issues you are aware of?


Offline Erica_a80

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Re: night Wakings upto 10x a night.
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2016, 12:34:30 pm »
Yes sorry there was a bottle at 5:45, we aimed to have him down for 6 but he didn't fall asleep until 6:10.
He cried initially so I pu/pd for a while and played some white noise which usually soothes him. He still wasn't completely settled, my partner came in at this point to take over (I haven't been well, sickness bug) and I think he made eye contact because then he was wide awake and wanted to play. After an hour I came back in and rolled him onto his side and shush patted him. I know it isn't age appropriate but it works for us. And he fell asleep. All of the other times he woke crying and I shush patted him.
He used to have silent reflux when he was younger and he appeared to grow out of it, I have suspected it again lately but only because he has begun back arching and his breath smells acidic. He doesn't cry when feeding like he used to. I have started putting gaviscon again in his bottles but it hasn't made a difference to the back arching or his breath. Do you think silent reflux could be the reason for his night wakings? To be honest last night was a good night for us he is usually much more unsettled than that.