11mo refuses to eat during day and is hungry all night

[kjr928]

Hi. I'm really down in the dumps. I've been having night waking problems for a very long time.

I was bfing DD until a few weeks ago. I transitioned because she would only bf on me for about 2-3 minutes at a time and we were having tons of nws. I couldn't measure how much she was getting, so I switched to bottle.

Since then what I have found is that IF I can get her to take the bottle during the day at all, it's only about 1-2 oz at a time. I try to get more into her by feeding more often (before and after naps). I do not feed her to sleep - she is always put down awake.

After I put her down to bed at about 7:30, she wakes up around 10 or 11pm and CHUGS 4oz of formula. Then again at around 2am, then again around 5am. Then the morning comes and she refuses the bottle again all day. I have not been able to get her to take more than 4oz in one sitting.

I should also note that my house is *chaotic* during the day with my 3yo DS who is like a little nutcase. For a long time now he has been very interfering when I try to feed the baby, and I think that has been a contributing factor to these problems.

I have no idea who to fix any of this. Can someone please help me?   

[Lolly]

Ok, sounds like she is taking a lot of her milk during the night which is why she isn't hungry during the day. At 11 months she doesn't need a night feed at all, so the only way to shift that milk is to reduce and eliminate all night feeds.

Can you give me your EASY with all eating times (solids and milk) so I can see how things are please?

I think I would tackle the 2am feed first, I would reduce it by 1oz every 3 nights and then you resettle once the milk is finished. She will protest, especially once it's down to 1oz but she needs to learn to sleep without it. You can then tackle the 10pm feed and then the 5am. If she is taking more during the day you may find she stops waking for that 10pm feed by herself.

Are you using the fastest flow teat too?

Laura

[kjr928]

Hi Laura,

Thanks for your response. I got your message last night and so I reduced the 2am feed to 3oz as you suggested. I also fed her immediately in her room when I got her up from naps instead of feeding her downstairs where my other (noisy) kids are. I noticed she did take her bottle better during the day today. And yes, she is on the 9m+ nipples.

Here is my EASY from the last 24 hours starting last night at dinner:

E - 7pm solids
E & BED - 7:45p 4oz & bed
S - 7:45-9:30p
E - 9:30p 3oz
S - 9:30-11p
E - 11p 3oz
S - 11-3:15a
E - 3:20a 3oz
S - 3:20-6:45a
E & WAKE - 6:45a 3oz
A - 6:45-9a
E - 9a solids
A - 9-10:15a
E - 10:15a 2oz
S - 10:15-11:15a nap
E - 11:15a 4oz
A - 11:15-12p
E - 12p solids
A - 12-3p
E - 3p 4oz
S - 3-4:30p nap
E - 4:30p 2.5oz
A - 4:30-5p
E - 5p solids
A - 5-7:30p
E & BED - 7:30 2.5oz & bed
E - 10p 4oz

It's a heck of a lot of EATING because I'm feeding on both ends of the nap trying to get more in her. Seems like a very fragmented routine. I don't think she's filling up on solids either - she doesn't seem to be a big eater.

So at this point I'm not sure if reducing the 3a feed helped her during the day or if me keeping her in the bedroom did. I am looking forward to seeing if she will sleep better tonight since she ate better during the day. I'll make sure to only give her the 3oz later when she wakes up. Will check back in here tomorrow to let you know what happens.

Thanks again!

[Lindsay27]

My DD is also 11 months old and we are doing 3 milk feeds a day.  I am thinking that perhaps trying to feed her frequently during the day could actually be causing her to take small feeds instead of nice big ones.  We do 7am - 2:30pm - 7pm/before bed.  I think if you reduce the number of daytime feeds and concentrate them together, she will take a bigger/better feed before bed and that will eliminate many of her first few wakings.

[Lolly]

My DD is also 11 months old and we are doing 3 milk feeds a day.  I am thinking that perhaps trying to feed her frequently during the day could actually be causing her to take small feeds instead of nice big ones.  We do 7am - 2:30pm - 7pm/before bed.  I think if you reduce the number of daytime feeds and concentrate them together, she will take a bigger/better feed before bed and that will eliminate many of her first few wakings.

I agree with this, at 11 months my DD was on exactly the same bottle pattern and no night feeds. From 6 moths they only need 20oz of milk to get what they need and this included the dairy in food, from 1 year they need 12oz of dairy. Your DD is having over 30oz in 24 hours, plenty more than she needs.

I think you have a snacking/ grazing issue, you have taught her to eat little bits often so she is never getting the chance to get properly hungry. If you think about it, if you ate at 9.30pm, 11pm amd 3.45am you wouldn't be hungry during the day either! 10 bottle feeds during 24 hours is a newborn patten, 3 bottle feeds is expected and drops to 2 when they hit 1.

During the day I would give a bottle at wake up, then breakfast. Before her morning nap offer her a snack rather than a bottle then lunch after her nap. She can have another bottle before her afternoon nap and then a snack if needed on wake up. Then she gets her evening food and a bottle before sleep.

I think her bedtime is probably a bit late which is why she is waking in the early part of the evening she's a bit OT by then. I'm not sure she needs solids at 7 either, I would do bedtime milk by that time and put her to sleep.

She really doesn't need the feeds overnight, looking at what's going on I would reduce all those bottles at the same time so offer no more than 3oz at each one and resettle. Then offer 2oz and resettle, then 1oz and then don't give her any more milk. You can offer a sip of water if you think she may be thirsty but no milk. You will get a few rough nights while she learns to adjust, but she will.

Does she go to sleep independently for all her sleeps?

You won't see an improvement in the day time straight away, it will take time for her appetite to shift to the day. When you offer snacks you could offer a small amount of cheese or a yoghurt so that she is getting dairy from food as well as milk.

How is she with solids - is she self feeding and eating the meals your other kids eat (minus salt, sugar etc)?

Laura

[kjr928]

Hi! Thank you for your very thorough response. It really helps clarify what's going on a lot and now I feel like I can start to make a plan!

To answer your question - Yes - she does go to sleep independently for all naps and bed. I put her down awake. (Learned my lesson the hard way with baby number 1!)
She does well with finger foods - I just cut up whatever my other kids are eating, or if I have interesting leftovers for her and she feeds herself. She is more or less rejecting being spoonfed, so I'm having trouble with feeding things like fruit/cereal for breakfast and yogurt and things like that.

So I quit breastfeeding because I was having these problems and I obviously didn't know how much milk she was getting. I switched to formula so that I could figure out what was wrong and manage this easier. So even though she is my third baby, this is actually the first time I'm bottle feeding if you can believe that. So you're saying she needs 20oz and 3 feeds during the day, so I should be aiming for 6-8oz per feed, is that correct? Sorry if that sounds like a dumb question, I just need a little reassurance since everything is so screwed up.

I will make the feeding schedule changes you suggested. If she's only having 3 bottles during the day then should I be giving her water or something with solids?

I know she doesn't need any overnight feeds at this point. Both my other kids were sleeping through the night long before this. Nowadays they are waking me up at night with nightmares and trying to sneak into my bed and that kind of bs, so I'm extra exhausted these days.

Last night I only offered her 3oz all night (she woke up at 10p, 12a & 5:30a - maybe one other time but I don't remember). So it's not like a great improvement but I noticed that the wake up times have seemed to shift a little. I will do the same for the next couple of nights and then reduce, just like you said. Hopefully this adjustment won't take too long or be too painful!

Again, thank you so much for your help. Any other suggestions are very welcome. I'll write back soon.

[Lolly]

So you're saying she needs 20oz and 3 feeds during the day, so I should be aiming for 6-8oz per feed, is that correct? Sorry if that sounds like a dumb question, I just need a little reassurance since everything is so screwed up.

I will make the feeding schedule changes you suggested. If she's only having 3 bottles during the day then should I be giving her water or something with solids?

Yes, 20oz and aim for 6-8oz a bottle but that can include dairy in food so if she doesn't hit that don't worry too much and increase her dairy based foods. She'll drop to 2 bottles at the year mark and can have cow's milk at that point.

Definitely give water will all solids or you could offer a little cow's milk in a cup with a mid morning snack to start getting her used to it. Check local recs about that though.

It will take time to adjust, you didn't get to this point overnight so you can't expect to see improvements over night either, as you get the night milk down and gone they day will get better. Giving her more time between foods and milk will help too. With yoghurts etc give her a spoon and let her feed herself, or give her a spoon and you use one too.

Let us know how you are getting on.

Laura

[kjr928]

Hi there,

So last night she woke up at 10, 1, 3 & 5am. I'm guessing she woke up the extra time because I reduced it down to 3oz and she's trying to make up for it. I'm assuming that after a couple of days of this, she will get used to it and go back to 3 wake ups. And then I'll reduce to 2oz and start over again, ha ha. This morning I gave her a bottle around 7:30 - I made her 6oz with high hopes but she would only take 4oz. Oh well, like you said, it won't happen overnight. I am making all the daytime changes you suggested as well.

Well, it's not going to be easy or fun, but I guess you reap what you sow. At least now I can figure out how much she's getting now that she's on the bottle! Will keep you posted.

Thanks!

[Lolly]

That sounds like a good start! Stick to your plan though!

What happened at the extra wake up? Did you feed her then or just resettle? If you fed, don't!

To be honest though, it's probably not hunger driving the wakings, once they get to toddlerhood (and she is just about there) they really don't wake because of hunger at night if they have eaten during the day. They can wake because they are used to waking and eating but that's different, having 3oz less during the night before won't make her hungry the following night. We do get into a habit of just offering food because we assume it must be hunger and to be honest if I was offered food at 3am I would probably eat it too

My daughter essentially refused to eat after about 3pm for most of her toddler year and she gave up bedtime milk by 18 months, she never woke up hungry. We stopped her nightfeed by 8.5 months by reducing milk and then refusing to feed and she stopped waking after the third night of no milk. She was a refluxer barely taking 20oz during the day.

Laura

Laura

[kjr928]

Hi! Yes, I did give her the 3oz when she woke up the extra time. Oops! Won't do that again. So I just put her down for a nap now and got her to take 6oz! It did take a little persuasion. That's the most she's taken at one time. Now I will shoot for 8oz before bed and cross my fingers.

I'm sure that some degree of her night waking are behavioral, like you said. But since I KNOW I have a feeding issue too, I figured I should just straighten that out first and then reassess/readdress any night wakings as behavioral. Maybe my sched needs tweaking too.

I can't believe I'm on my third kid with these problems. I should at least have an inkling of what I'm doing by now! Ha ha

[Lindsay27]

Fantastic news on the 6oz bottle! TBH my DD never takes more than 6/7oz per feed and no NF, and she's perfectly healthy and growing, so don't be stressed if she doesn't do 8oz before bed...mine has literally never taken an 8oz bottle.

[Lolly]

I can't believe I'm on my third kid with these problems. I should at least have an inkling of what I'm doing by now! Ha ha

Nah - that's baby brain for you! To be fair every day is an adventure of lurching from one crisis to the next in my house, if everyone is alive by bedtime I call it a win!

Fantastic news on the 6oz bottle! TBH my DD never takes more than 6/7oz per feed and no NF, and she's perfectly healthy and growing, so don't be stressed if she doesn't do 8oz before bed...mine has literally never taken an 8oz bottle.

^^^ Totally agree with this too!

Don't try for too long to get her to take a bottle either, a bottle feed shouldn't take more than about 20 mins. Do you know you can't keep formula too, once a bottle has been started it needs to be discarded by about an hour after they began drinking from it.

Good luck tonight!

Laura

[kjr928]

Hi! Yes I do know that about not keeping formula too long.

Last night at bedtime I was very optimistic and made her 8oz - of course she would only take 3! Wishful thinking I guess. So the good news is that she only woke up TWICE last night - once I think around 1am and the other around 5am. Each time I gave her 3oz. When I got her up around 7:15 this morning she took 6oz!

So I'm hoping that the better daytime feeds are helping her at night, because that will probably make things a little easier when I try to get her off the night feeds altogether. Thanks!

[Lolly]

Yeah! Well done!

So are you doing 3oz tonight? If so make that the last night of 3oz and drop to 2oz tomorrow night.

Laura

[kjr928]

Hi! Drum roll please...
I gave her 3oz at 11pm... and.... she slept the rest of the night through!!!!!!

This is the best night of sleep she's ever had, and the best night of sleep I've had since she was born.. I feel like crying, ha ha.

Anyway, that was my last 3oz night, like you said tonight I will drop down to 2oz and keep my fingers crossed. Going to go fix her a nice big bottle now.

I CANT THANK YOU ENOUGH FOR YOUR HELP!!!!