Almost 4 month old bedtime issues -PLEASE HELP

[Jade1245]

I have an almost 4 month lols who I can manage to get to go down for his first two naps of the day on his own with just a little crying/fussing. The afternoon cat nap is a struggle and I sometimes end up rocking him to sleep or he doesn't nap. My main issue is bedtime I still try to put him down two hours after he wakes but at bedtime he just screams and screams when I put him down no matter what I do. I usually spend the next few hours rocking and feeding until he eventually goes to sleep. On the odd occasion I can settle him at 7pm he wakes half an hour later and is impossible to resettle.
Any tip please this has been going on for weeks now.

[creations]

Hi there.
Has your LO always had relatively long A times?  Did a longer than normal A time work in the past do you think?
I ask because a 2hr A time would be considered the guidance for a 4 month old but from the sounds of it your LO is not yet 4 months and might have been having a 2hr A time for a while.  If he is used to longer A times and it usually goes well for you then he might now be undertired and need a small stretch on his A time but otherwise it could be too long for his age and he is instead over tired.  Do you have a feel for one or the other based on your experience with him?
Would you like to post today's EASY times for me to look at?

[Jade1245]

Hi thanks for your reply. We have previously done about 1hr45 A times. Today I am attempting stretch them out to 2 hours and see how he goes. He has also started cat napping for some of his naps so I'm thinking he may be overtired. Shall post today's Easy times this afternoon. I'm wondering if it's to do with the 4 month sleep regression. He isn't 4 months until 5th Dec.

[Jade1245]

Well today was totally out of whack but here goes

E -8.15am
A - till 9.45
S - 10 - 10.45 couldn't resettle
E - 11
A - till 12.10
S - 12.20 - 1
E - 2.00
A - till 2.30
S - 2.40 - 3.30
E - 4
A - till 5.20
S - had to go out so slept in capsule 5.30 till 6.50
E - 7
A - 7.15 bath and book/sing song
S - 8.40 into bed but still not asleep and it's 9.10 he was just laying there quietly for a while but is now crying and we are doing ssh pat.

This is not a typical day though he has started catnapping the last week. Here is our usual day pre catnapping
E - 7.30
A - till 9.15
S - 9.30 - 11
E - 11
A - till 12.30
S - 12.45 - 2.30 or 3
E - 3
A - till 4.20
S- 4.30 or 4.45 depending on last nap sleep till 5.30
E - 6.00
A - bath book song
S - 7 into bed but usually won't settle when he does he wakes 30-45 mins later and takes hours to resettle.

I'm at a loss as to what to do.
I try not to look at the clock so much and follow his cues but that doesn't seem to work either.

[creations]

I suggest for now looking at the clock is a good idea.  When a LO is on a good routine which is working watching out for cues is great as you can judge if LO has had an extra-stimulating morning and needs a slightly earlier nap or is perhaps coming down with a cold or something.  But when the routine goes off track I find it is more helpful to watch clock.
At this age cues can be difficult to read, a yawn may mean boredom and needing a change of scene or activity rather than tiredness, being handed a different toy to hold or being moved into a different room can easily extend the A time and stop the misleading yawns.  You are also right though, the 4 month sleep regression is a time when many LOs start taking short naps, my DS did it too, for us it started at 3.5 months and continued until 5.5 months.

To be honest it looks like you might have reduced the A time too much. You say he was previously doing 1hr 45 and I see that your pre-CNing EASY has a first A time of 2hrs so he was likely ready to increase to 2hrs and 2hrs 15 (perhaps 2hr 15 just on the first A time and perhaps not all day) however your more recent EASY shows a first A time of 1hr 45 (so it is less than before the problems started) and the second A time of 1hr 35 which is likely not a big enough increase to help him be properly tired for that nap.
The early night waking looks more like UT to me rather than OT. Often these early evening NWs are down to OT but I would expect to see it happening after too long a last A time and LO crying abut a bit easier to settle down - I can't say for certain but it looks like he's taking it as another CN and wanting a long A time after it.

See how you go on 2hrs (and longer on that first A), Tracy said in her book to keep them awake the full A time and to do a fan dance if necessary.  You need him good and tired to help him transition between sleep cycles or to make it easier for you to help him resettle.  The temptation is to reduce the A time following a short nap but in my experience this just perpetuates the UT issue.  You can either count the next 2hr A time from the end of the short nap or you can do as Tracy described in her BW book and set out the day, knowing when the nap times are and make LO wait for the next nap time - this does mean a very very long A time but it can often mean getting back onto a routine faster too.  It's up to you.

[Jade1245]

Thank you for your advice. I will try my best tomorrow to stretch out the A times to 2hrs I was just worried today that he wasn't getting enough sleep. Do you think bedtime needs to be a little later? Tonight he finally went down at 9.45 

[creations]

Two choices on BT really.
1. Either work a suitable A time (2hr 2hr 15 if he was already having 2hr prior to BT) from the wake up time of the last nap and go with that
or
2. write out a routine with set nap times and set BT and stick to it. The set BT needs to be at a suitable A time based on proper length naps but is then not changed following a short nap.  This route can bring on OT as the A times can become very long but it also gets into routine faster.  Tracy describes using set times in her BW book, although EASY is not a "set times" routine she used them to get LOs into routine. And the "set times" are not a one size fits all like some sleep routines, they are based on your own LO and what is right for him.

Either way I'd let BT go later than 7pm if the routine needs it. To me it can be shifted up to 8pm and not beyond, equally if a nap is dropped or LO is exhausted and refusing a nap then bed time can be brought early and EBT done at 5 or 6pm. so the movement goes both ways on BT if that makes sense.

[Jade1245]

Today we did a 4 hour easy with awake times of two hours and a final wake time of 2.15 hours due to a long second nap he didn't have a late cat nap and went down easily at 6.30 and is still asleep so fingers crossed.

[creations]

Sounds great!  So was it a 2 nap day then?

[Jade1245]

Yes it was a two nap day. Same thing happened today. Went down fine both nights at bedtime but woke an hour later and just seemed not tired and won't sleep for another couple of hours. I'm wondering if he is treating bedtime as his third nap. Perhaps I need to wake him from his naps in order to fit a cat nap in do you think ?

[creations]

Most 4 months olds would be doing 3 naps, yes. I did wonder about the two nap day. Thing is we have seen some LOs on the forums drop to two naps at this age even though it isn't 'standard' but as always we follow baby's needs and not a strict schedule.
You could try a shorter A time before the CN if he'll agree to going down for a nap, and do 30-45 mins CN, then A time then BT.

[Jade1245]

I'm still trying to find the best routine for my little guy nothing I try seems to work most nights he won't go down until 10pm. I'm hoping it will pass soon.

[creations]

Would you like to post yesterday's EASY times and I'll have a look? The 4 month regression is a tricky one and sometimes nothing seems to work but I might spot something you could tweak perhaps?

[Jade1245]

I've just been putting him down two hours after he wakes and 1.45 to fit the catnap in at bedtime I've been doing 2.15 hours but he usually won't settle at all until later in the evening past three night has been 8.39 even though I can tell he is exhausted.

This is what yesterday looked like

7.30 wake and feed
9.30 sleep
11.00 wake
11.30 feed
1.00 sleep
2.30 wake
3.00 feed
4.45 sleep
5.15 wake
6.00 feed, bath
7.30 bed.

[creations]

Is he doing those lovely 1.5hr naps on his own now or do you need to help him with them?
Are you waking him from the CN at the 30 min time or is he waking himself?

The A time before the CN seems a bit long in your EASY there at 2hr 15 rather than 1hr 45.
I wonder if you might rather go for a 2hr A time and another full nap instead?  It makes BT later but as things are you are not having a great time of BT anyway are you?  So the end of the day would go something like :
S 1.00 - 2.30
E
A 2hr
S 4.30 - 6.00
E cluster
A 2hr
E BT milk
BT 8.00

What do you think?