Wakes every time I put him down

[Chloevalentine]

Anyone have any tips ?... Before nap I sit with lo until he's drowsy and put him in crib he instantly wakes up. I've tried putting him down asleep I've tried putting him in awake. This was never a problem until recently. Yesterday I couldn't get him to sleep at all. He was up from 12 until 530! Any time I put him down he woke and then I'm sure the ot set in.

[..Claire..]

My DS was also like that for a while, it's so hard! I found putting him down gradually, legs first, then bottom, then back, then shoulders and lastly head helped a lot. It didn't solve the problem but helped a lot. I think I also kept my hands on him for a minute or so after he was down also helped.

[Chloevalentine]

But it's to the point where I can't get him to nap. This morning I had to pick him up 4 times.  He wakes around 615 I try to get him down for a nap by 8 because I need to leave for school drop off by 845. So if I can't get him down by 8 I have to wait until I'm home at 915 if he hasn't already taken a cn in the car he's ot by the time I get him down in crib.

[creations]

Thanks for paying it forward ..Claire.. it's very much appreciated, and welcome to BW forums
I think your tip is great, I remember struggling when mine was very little for a while and I even put him to sleep on a blanket on the floor so I could put him down slowly and keep my hands and body close to him during the movement and adjustment! The things we do to keep a baby asleep!!

CV - how old is LO now?
I think last time we caught up you were napping him in a swing, is that right?  Is he in the cot for all naps now or some still in the swing and in the car?  Just trying to get an idea of the situation.
Do you feel he has been sleep trained?  Was he self settling?

[Chloevalentine]

Hi there no he's been in the crib  for a good 2-3  months at least.  When its naptime we will go into his room in the dark with the white noise machine I change his diaper put a swaddle blanket on his legs and sit with him in the chair and rock or just sit with no movement for a bit sing a song until he gets sleepy and closes his eyes then I put him in the crib. He almost always cries and squirms around for a while. Most of the time when I put him down he starts crying. I've tried putting him in awake and also after he's asleep for a bit. What does it mean to be sleep trained? At night I have no problems. He settles after night feedings etc. 9 times out of 10 he sleeps for 30 mins. He's 4.5 months now and I'm desperate for better naps. He's average a time is 2 hrs but it can be 1.5 hrs after a few cns or this afternoon it was almost 2.5 hrs. Last night he was up from 230 until bedtime at 630!

[Chloevalentine]

His easy today:
 
Awake at 615
E at 730 (he had just eaten at 330 am)
Tried to put down for nap with no luck
S 930-10
E 1045
S 1140-1215
E 2
S 240-310

So 3 30-40 min naps

[creations]

There is some info on sleep training here:
Sleep Training  - the early days
And a thread here for sleep training at 3-5 months
Teaching Sleep to Babies of 3-5 months (and the 45 min nap)

In short sleep training means you have taught your baby to be confident to sleep alone. This means that there is a wind down whereby baby knows what is coming next, he is relaxed but awake and you put him in the cot awake say good night and leave the room. A baby who has been sleep trained and has become an independent sleeper will be happy to be left and will self settle and fall to sleep. At the 40 min mark when they come out of sleep they can transition alone into the next sleep cycle.

Being able to sleep long periods at night is not an indication that baby is an independent sleeper or has been taught to self settle in the day for naps.  Remarkably I saw with my own DS and again with lots of other babies on the boards that babies can have habits *per sleep* so they can have the habit of napping one way for one nap and another way for another nap. My own was in a routine and habit of sleeping in his cot for the first nap and in the car for his second nap. I created that habit due to our family needs and circumstances.  On any day I might choose not to go out in the car in time for that second nap mine was almost impossible to get down for a nap in his cot despite being totally independent and happy there for nap 1.  He would cry to go to the car and shout at me to hurry up!

It isn't just about where LO sleeps, that is just an example, it is how they sleep. Self soothing needs to be taught with your support.  It could well be that your LO is short napping due to the habit of short napping and not being taught to sleep longer.

[Chloevalentine]

Makes sense! But how do I teach him to sleep longer?! Today he napper in the car for first nap about 25 mins 1 hr 45 min A time then 2 hours a time a took a 2 hr nap which he does on occasion to catch up from not napping. The problem I have is the late afternoon nap I can't get him to take one but can he be up from 145 until bedtime? Last night he went to bed at 630 woke at 3 to eat then up again around 5 I finally resettled him because he's starting to wake early and he slept until 715. We usually follow a 12 hr day 630-630 but I don't think he can stay up from 145-7!

[creations]

But how do I teach him to sleep longer?!

I would suggest reviewing either your BW book for a full and detailed description of how to sleep train, or the links above for sections of information from the books plus tips from the boards.
Sometimes re-reading the book is helpful, if nothing else it refocuses the mind on the end goal of independent sleep and reminds us of the ups and downs of of baby routines. Tracy said EASY wasn't easy and told us to keep our expectations low - wise words which have helped me a great deal.

but can he be up from 145 until bedtime

No. I would say this is not a suitable routine.  Even short CNs are better than that length A time.

I feel your frustration CV x
Many hugs honey

[Lindsay27]

Sometimes we simply can't teach them to sleep longer.  All we can do is give the tools and skills and the rest is developmental and them teaching themselves how to sleep longer.  It is very much something that comes with time.  Have a good wind down routine, have appropriate A times, and the rest will come on his time.  You can't make a baby sleep honey, all you can do is give the appropriate environment, and if a nap is short (which honestly...they are at this age), then scale back and move on with your day. 

[Chloevalentine]

Well I just tried putting him into crib for nap awake and it took me 45 mins! I just don't have that kind of time with also having a 3.5 year old. There's got to be other people that have the same issue. I wonder how they get on with sleep training. This isn't going to be doable for me.

[Lindsay27]

I'all be back to post later hun, but I think a sort of 'back to basics' is needed.  You are going to need to find a time when you can comitt to sleep training, a weekend when DH/DP is home to help with the older LO, or perhaps over the holidays if both you and DH are going to be home...anyway a period of at least a few days when you can focus on it.

[Haribo2012]

I think the other thing to try and remember is that it took 45 mins today but the more you persevere the less time it will take in a few days. I had a not quite 4 year old when I started ST DS2 and he has to have a bit more tv than I'd like or be out on the landing helping me by being quiet with his colouring books etc.

[Chloevalentine]

He took two 20 min naps today ugh. Not only is the sleep training hard and time consuming it's the crying and squirming in my arms before naps that's hard too. Unfortunately even with tv my toddler still gets into trouble when I'm busy with the baby

[deb]

Habe you considered reflux? That's what woke DD1 every single time.

[Chloevalentine]

I haven't thought of that? What are the symptoms or signs?we tried starting cereal and fruit but he had a hard time he was gassy etc so I haven't given him much.
As far as scheduled he wakes around 6/615 sometimes 5 sonetimes I can resettle until 7 but average is 6.  I tried to get him down for a nap around eight but I have such a hard time and ends up being too late because I have to bring my other one to school. So he ends up falling asleep in the car around nine which is a three hour a time. He'll sleep for 30 minutes and then usually I'll try again for a nap at 11:30  i'm wondering if that's too long and I should try a bit earlier.  With the short naps though they always end up falling at the same time as he needs to eat. I actually prefer to feed him when he awakes some people think feeding before a nap helps him sleep but not for him. It's just odd to me that before every nap he cries he's fussy and he squirms around like crazy I just wonder why he does that .   Trying to sleep training and putting them in the crib awake time consuming but it's not like I can fall back on my old standby and he'll go to sleep easily because he doesn't go to sleep easily ever in any situation except bedtime. The later is also hard to that he never wants to go down

[Lindsay27]

Here is some info on reflux:

Reflux 101 - General reflux information

[Chloevalentine]

Nah I don't think it's reflux. He gets hiccups but that's about it.  Put him down awake today after feeding him (he was falling asleep during feeding) kept him up changed his diaper swaddled his legs sang a little song or two while holding him and put him in crib he didn't cry but was very vocal which he is lately screaming and talking and then it went to a complain and a cry i tried the shh pat with no luck I picked him up no rocking and he closed his eyes right away so I put him down. So still didn't really put himself to sleep though. And slept 40 mins which is better than the 20-30. But he's still yawning now so I know he's not getting any good rest during the day. Going to try again for a nap at 130 without feeding him first he should be able to make it until 2/215 and if he sleeps for 30 mins that's where it gets tricky because he won't go down for another nap late in the day. Ps first A time was almost 3 hrs second was 1.5.

[Chloevalentine]

He ended up falling asleep in the car again from 115-145 and he wouldn't go down for another nap! Bedtime was 6 and he actually slept through the night until 515 am! While this is great I'm not welcoming the early wake up but with such terrible naps I can't make bedtime later.

[Chloevalentine]

So as far as the sleep training I haven't been able to work on it much because he gets hysterical before every nap! He starts crying and squirming in my arms that I can't even put him in the crib. Today he cried for 20 mins straight until he passed out. I've tried starting routine earlier as well as later but nothing works. We do this 4 times a day. It's awful. Am I missing something ? The room temp is comfortable the white noise is on its dark.

[Chloevalentine]

He's up crying after 20 minutes

[Haribo2012]

He could be OT by the time you get up to bed could you maybe start but earlier? Any teeth starting to move?

[Chloevalentine]

I'm sure that could be it but he never shows many sleepy cues. After 20-30 mins naps what kind of A time would you do? He took two 30 min naps and a 20 and I'm working on the fourth nap now 1.5 hrs since he woke from his last 30 min nap. I just fed him so I know he's not hungry. He's just starting to cry in the crib.

[Haribo2012]

How old is he 5 months? What A time are you doing? 2/2.5 hours would be about average so of short naps shave 15/20 mins off?

[Chloevalentine]

He's 4.5 months. He's always only taken short naps. We usually do about 2 hrs A time on average. But usually after 3 short naps in a row I aim for 1.5A time. He ended up falling asleep after 1 hr40 mins A time this last nap. The sleep training is hard though when hes tired after all of the short naps

[Haribo2012]

Ok so A time is ok, it does get easier after the 6 month mark as naps get longer but of course sleep training is prob going to be the main factor x

[Chloevalentine]

 But as far as the crying and squirming before every nap what could that be from ?

[jessmum46]

Over tiredness?  Or just not having the independent sleep skills to get himself off to sleep - and therefore getting wound up and frustrated?  I know how annoyed I feel when I'm tired but can't drop off

[Haribo2012]

Yep and my DS2 flings himself about when he's OT and got past being able to settle.

[Chloevalentine]

Today he's take two naps of 1.5 hours each!! And fell asleep in his own after a little chatting !!

[Chloevalentine]

Oh and both times it was 2.5 hours A time!

[Haribo2012]

Yahey well done you and him x

[Chloevalentine]

I just can't ever get a nap out of him late in the day so he was up at 220 I'll try for a 6 bedtime

[jessmum46]

Good plan.  The 3-2 is rubbish!  In case it helps, we had 'rules' which were if second nap ends before 3pm, try for catnap (by any means).  If no joy by 5pm then abandon in favour of 6pm bedtime.  If second nap ends after 3pm then BT 3h A later.

Glad you had some good naps yesterday

[Chloevalentine]

Thanks that's helpful will do! If I can just get him to bed a bit later being that he's sleeping from 630 until 5/530 am if he can just push it until at least 6 would be great but I'm afraid that won't happen unless I can get that third nap. Also in the morning we r in the car for school drop off at his 2.5 A time I've been letting him cn for 30 mins but wonder if I try to transfer I might get a long nap or he might wake and I'll get no nap lol. Also if I just get a 30 min cn should I do a shorter A time before next nap like 2 hrs? Otherwise I'll have to cut the nap short to do school pick up. Man this is hard trying to schedule.

[Chloevalentine]

This morning he did fall asleep in the car slept from 9-930 and he actually went down for nap 1.5 hrs after. So his A times are all over the place which is probably the reason I'm having such a hard time with naps plus the fact that he's always happy and pleasant so you never know when he's tired lol.

[Chloevalentine]

 We are getting better at naptime most of the time he goes in awake and falls asleep not every time. He Usually wakes around 630 and then does a 30 minute catnap in the car from 9 to 930 at school drop off  then his second nap is usually around 11 and for an hour and a half ago yesterday it was earlier but only for 30 minutes. His third nap is usually around three but sometimes only 30-45 minutes.  So we still are only getting really want to good nap and bedtime around 630.   He's been sleeping through until around 4- 4:30 AM  and then goes back until 630.   How can I help him sleep through instead of waking at 4:30.   I'm thinking if he does a later longer nap I can get him to bed a little later and maybe he'll sleep a little later and not wake until 6 ish.

[Chloevalentine]

 This morning we also had trouble with the first nap being that he's used to taking it in the car but there is no school today he only slept for maybe 25 minutes it took him a bit to get him to sleep

[jessmum46]

he's always happy and pleasant

This is what you need to hold onto hun - if he's happy and chirpy even when sleep goes to pot then I'd call that a win

I've lost track of how old he is but I think less than 6 months?  To me 9.5-10h stretch then back down for another couple of hours is fab, I don't think necessarily you can 'fix' that to a whole STTN right now - just hang in there x

[Lindsay27]

Completely agree with Katherine, sleeping through to 4/4:30 at this age is fab hun, I would certainly expect he would still need a feed at that time (he is just under 5 months?).  I really wouldn't expect an LO who isn't well established on solids yet to be sleeping through, and that is just a time/age thing.  I know from your other thread you've started solids a bit early on the advice of your doctor, however I don't think it becomes really established until they are eating 3 meals plus milk.

[Chloevalentine]

Even with good naps which some days he does others I still get 3-4 30 min naps he still goes down around 630. Last night we had two Wakings 130 and then 5! And he never really settled back. My first son slept through the night at 5 weeks this guy is 5 months and still not!

[Lindsay27]

All in good time hun My DS didn't sleep through until he was just over a year!  And DD (who is a rockstar sleeper) was 6 months, pretty well as soon as she was on solids.  Every LO is different and it is still absolutely normal and necessary for him to need to feed once or twice in the night.  I'd say if your first slept through at 5 weeks you got extremely lucky, because that certainly isn't the norm 

[Haribo2012]

My DS2 is 10.5 months and still wakes once, not always to feed but he's very different to his older brother. Just try and remember how quickly they get to be 3yrs old and that's what makes me stay patient.

[Chloevalentine]

But lately I can't get him back to sleep and I can barely function taking care of both kids all day waking up before 5!! Is there anything I can do to stop the early Wakings ?

[deb]

I had some success with sitting DD#1 back to sleep when she woke so early. There was a chair by her bed and I just held her in the chair in hopes of getting another round of sleep for myself and one day we woke like 2 hours later! I know you've got two others but maybe that early you could get away with it AND get at least a little more sleep for yourself?

[Chloevalentine]

I've tried it no luck waking up at 430 am is killing me! Is even accept 530 am! Lol if I could just get a later bedtime  maybe he's sleep later but I know that could backfire.

[Chloevalentine]

What if I stirred him earlier to wake him to eat like 3 am? Maybe he'd fall back asleep for longer?

[deb]

Could always try a Wake to Sleep. If things are this haywire at night, you probably don't have much to lose.