22mth old.... Please help me understand his sleep needs?

[mrsroberts4]

Hello everyone!

Sorry this is a really long post as I tried to put as much info as possible, but to avoid the back story, please skip to the '*'.

I'm wondering if any of you could possibly help me dechiper what my 22 month old son needs for his sleep routine.

I've spent a year trying to figure it out with trial and error and there just seems no ryhme or reason.
I have a 3yr old too and I'm 6mths pregnant AND trying to get this sorted as I feel it triggering my PND and I just can't go back there... so any help would be much appreciated!

Right, my 22 month old son is a lovely boy... calm, sweet and just loves to play with his cars, but he always seems to have an issue with sleep.

He wouldnt sleep for more than 20mins day or night so we hired a sleep trainer for a few nights when he was 7months. It worked and he was great. Then he got ill and had a bad cold and then chicken pox so by the time he was 1yrs old he was back to waking at night for milk. We managed to sleep train him ourselves using the techniques we learnt and it went okay, but then staying at my MIL house in June meant that we came back and he had separation anxiety? So for 3months it was hell. Bedtimes and naptimes and night wakings were awful. I spent it all crying.

**** We managed to sort him out and get through it, but now, A night in hospital and a week forced with antibiotics AND I think the clocks going back have made it unbearable again.

He cries at bedtime and then wakes in the night for hours... like 4 or 5 hours and I am getting no sleep. I'm exhausted and crying and too tired to play with the kids and the other night I was so bad that I was ready to get up and walk away. I'm just so tired with the trial and error.

So before he went upside down this was his routine:
6.30am wake up
11.30am nap
2.00pm wake up
6-6.30pm bed (asleep)

He would sleep through and it worked for him.
Then mid october with illness hospital etc it went crazy.

Asked a sleep trainer and she suggested I put him on:
7am wake up
12.30pm nap until 3 or 4pm
7pm close door... bed.

It worked for 2 or 3nights but then he started waking in the night. She refused to budge on the times but I felt they were a little wrong for him? Because when he woke in the night.... 12.30pm was a long morning if he was tired.

Thursday he did:
7am wake
12pm nap
2.30pm wake
7.30pm bed...
No crying at bedtime and slept through the night until 6am.

Friday he did:
6am wake
11.30am nap
1.37pm wake
6.30pm close the door..bed
He cried and created for 50mins and then woke in the night at 2.40 babbling for an hour, then started crying whilst in WI/WO then stopped at 4.50am!!

I have no idea what to do or what he needs. Do you think he is over tired or under tired?

Its all over the place! I feel like the thursday one was good but trying to recreate it is impoasible because he wakes at different times. I put him to sleep  earlier to match the thursday A times but it didnt work.

Please help anyone?

I am sooooo sorry for the long post. I just wanted to give as much info as I could.

NB. My 3yr old daughter sleeps like a dream. She is in a toddler bed and has 2hr nap in the days she isnt at preschool and sleeps from 7pm to 7/7.30pm and manages to sleep through my sons crying so could it be the stress from PND that is making him like this?

Thank you x1,000,000 !!
x

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

I'm so sorry to hear how much this is effecting you. I well remember times when my LO didn't sleep well and how exhausting it was, fortunately I did not have the fear of PND looming over me. Do you have someone IRL you can talk with about your feelings and worries?
Perhaps you would like to receive some support on our PND board too? It sounds very very hard for you.

With regard to your LOs sleeping.
I can't promise a magical fix but would suggest a set nap and BT. Usually we suggest moving from A times to set naps around 1yo or when LO moves to one nap, they seem to be able to regulate their sleeping because of the consistency of the times of sleep.
Looking at the few samples you gave I would go for something like:

WU 6/7am (either way you keep to set nap and BT)
nap 12.00 - 2.30 (or there abouts, see how long he sleeps without capping and we can look at how the routine settles to see if this nap would be better capped)
BT 7.30pm

And as I said, you put him down for nap at the set nap time of 12.00 regardless of what time he woke up in the morning.
Here on BW forums we usually work out a suitable set nap time for the individual LO based on their previous routines and what suits them rather than a one-size-fits-all approach, it might be that if 12 doesn't work out to suit him it moves a little later, 12.15 or 12.30 but at each move it is set again and given time to show results (rather than moving daily to fit with WU time)
The benefit of the set nap is that it can help to bring the morning WU a little later (ie to move from sometimes 6am to more frequently 7am).

How about you try this for a week and see how he settles into it?  LOs take time to adjust so it is unlikely you will see a perfect routine in one or two days but over a week he has a chance to get used to it.  At that point we could look again if things are not going smoothly - for example if he is refusing or fussing at BT or waking too early or refusing to go down for nap.
What do you think?

[mrsroberts4]

Thank you soooooo much for your reply!!

I think I will have a look for the PND forum as I find it hard not having someone to talk about it with. I try to tell my husband but he doesn't seem to understand and I don't want him to think bad of me for not being able to handle the kids when others can, so I don't tell him the real depths of it. Thank you for that suggestion!!

Your advice makes perfect sense to me! Thank you! That could be where I have been going wrong as I keep changing the times based on his wake up from naps etc.

I will do 12pm nap today and then 7.30pm tonight and stick with those times.

Thank you so much for the advice and the guidance. I'll report back tonight!!
x

[creations]

Here's a link to the board, sorry I ought to have linked it earlier for you
Post Partum Depression
Things can be hard to find when you are new.

Fingers crossed LO can settle into a routine. Here to hold your hand x

[mrsroberts4]

Hiya,

Thank you so much for that link, it's so nice to see everyone coming together and it's nice to be able to identify with people of what I have been/am going through!

And thank you for the advice!!

Yesterday went as follows:
8am - Wake
12pm - Nap
7.45pm - Bed (Cried for 5mins then passed out)
5am  - Wake  (Would not go back to sleep)

This is an amazing improvement! I accidentally put him to bed a little later because the time got away from me a bit as I was going out. I would have had great sleep if I hadn't have come home at 12.30am 

But this is great!! I will deffo make his bedtime better tonight. Thank you! Thank you. Even though I only get a few hours sleep, I'm happy because he slept through and I'm one step closer to understanding him! Thank you!

*** With a 5am wake up, would I still put him to sleep at 12pm regardless as I am ignoring A times?

Thank you sooo much!! x

[creations]

*** With a 5am wake up, would I still put him to sleep at 12pm regardless as I am ignoring A times?

Yes that's the idea.  Either the set nap time will encourage him to wake later in the morning or we can look at his overall sleep in 24hrs and see if he needs slightly shorter nap etc.

It's only one night though, I don't want you to have too high expectation that this is a "fix" and done and dusted, yk?  There can be rough days/nights too when trying to settle onto a different routine.
Good luck x

Glad you found the PND board, do feel welcome to post even if you are not sure what to say, you can feel the support of others with hugs if nothing else x

[mrsroberts4]

Thank you!
Sorry, yes understand, I did get a little carried away with it. I think that even just understand now about his sleep needs (set times not A times)  has given me so much more clarity in understanding his sleep needs. That's massive for me as before when he woke up I was in despair as I had no clue what to do or try next or what I was doing wrong.

Now I understand what he needs, I have so much more enthusiasm to keep going with it and to trial out different times. So complete thank you for that.

He went down fine for his nap today and had a 2-3 min cry at bedtime and then went out. I'll see how he goes at night!

Thank you soooo much again for helping me with this!!

[creations]

You are very welcome.
It sounds like you had another good day

We are here if and when you are ready to update or if you have more questions.

[mrsroberts4]

Hiya,

sorry to bug you again, I just wanted to check that I was on the right track?

On the 27th from above, he slept through the night and woke up at 6.30am, but it's gone a bit pear shaped from then. I think I've messed it up

Monday 28th
6.30am - Wake
12.10pm - Nap
2.50pm - Wake from nap
7.10pm - Bed (Tried earlier as 7pm suits us better than 7.30pm)
*** He cried 3mins at bedtime then passed out... woke in the night @ 3.40am talking then started crying at 4.10am and would not go back to sleep***

Tuesday 29th
4.10am - Wake
11.30am - Nap (earlier than 12pm as he was starting to fall asleep in his highchair)
3pm - Wake from nap. (I passed out so woke him at this time when I woke up)
7.30pm - Bed
*** He cried for a couple of seconds when I closed his door but then passed out and went to sleep***

I'll see how he sleeps through the night tonight.
7.30pm bed seemed to make him sleep more at night.

Thank you very much!!

[creations]

You haven't messed up

So, the thing is if you want a 7pm BT then you might need to reduce the length of the nap. You might need to reduce the length of the nap anyway if he is undertired in the night.  Waking at 3.40am and chatting sounds like he is UT to me, some times it is hard to tell between OT and UT but with a 2hr 40 day nap I really don't think OT is at play here.  Waking in the night and then not going back to sleep though, that in itself can cause OT and grumpiness which we'd usually put down to OT.
The waking in the night is certainly not sociable is it.

It looks like he might be averaging something around 11 - 12hrs sleep in a 24hr period - would you think that sounds right?
Reducing the nap by 20 or 30 mins can increase the night by much more than 20 or 30 mins - possibly an hour.  Some of his naps are super long, the one on Tuesday at 3.5hr is likely to be stealing from his night sleep. Reducing that nap down to 2hrs could add something like 2-3 hrs to his night sleep, wouldn't that be nice?
I can't promise anything, all LOs are different of course but I would really consider reducing the nap length now.  Some LOs drop the nap as young as 24 months whilst others are still napping at 3.5yrs... personally I'd pick whichever gives a better night for your LO.

I suggest for the next several days you stick with the 12 or 12.15 nap but cap his nap at 2hrs:
WU any time up to 7am
nap 12 - 2 (or 12.15 - 2.25)
BT 7pm

What do you think?

[mrsroberts4]

Hiya Creations,

Yes that makes perfect sense, thank you! I'm sat here at 2.20am again listening to him talk and assuminv he is UT makes a lot of sense.

He is getting a lot of sleep in the day so these next seven days I will cap that at 2hrs and then do the 7pm bedtime and see how that goes!!

Thank you soooo much again for helping me with this!!! Knowing I actually have a trial and error plan really helps me keep sane through the night wakings are tiredness the next day! Thank you! x

[creations]

You are very welcome

We have all been through these tricky times, and we all turn to BW for support and ideas to help us through. I've been there with my LO going through these sleep disturbances and routine changes too.

Here for updates

[mrsroberts4]

Hiya,

Sorry it's been forever since I came back and provided an update!

After trying the last routine that you put forward to us, it seemed that this one was one that he settled into:
7-7.15am wake
12pm nap
2-2.10pm wake from nap
7.30-7.45pm bed

It seemed to work well for him and he slept through the night each night and it was fine.

Now fast forward to this past week (Sat 21st onwards) its been chaos again.

I hate it because I've been getting so mad with him and I'm really starting to resent him and all the stress he is putting me through so close to the 3rd baby being born.

I've had to spend the last 1.5years trying to figure out what he needs. Everyday I am clock-watching and after a year and a half I feel like I've had enough.

Now the routine that he was happy and doing great on no longer works. Just like that try to put him down for his nap and he fought it.

Monday 23rd he cried for an hour at bedtime and now just fights everytime I try and put him down. Not always crying, but talking and banging in his cot. So much that my 3yr old is being disturbed.

For the past two nights he isnwaking at 2.30am and talking and banging for 2hrs.

I dont know what to do with him. Its draining me everyday now trying to figure this out.
I'm trying to stick to the same routine he was on but he just isn't having it.

Sorry to sound so pathetic, but I think I've just had my limit of this now.

Right now he is talking and banging and doing whatever in his cot and its almost time for nap to be over??

[creations]

I work him out to be 24 months now - is that right?
Sleep needs can drop around this time. Also around every birthday there can be sleep disturbance as a developmental thing.
It's tough, it's hard work.  Do know though that what you describe sounds totally normal to me going on my own LO and all the threads I've read here - he isn't doing it to stress you out although I agree it can be exhausting and frustrating at times - deep breaths x

He is probably starting to move towards dropping his nap, which could be quick or it could be a slightly shorter nap which goes on another 6 months or more.
If he is fighting the nap I'd put him down 15 mins later, cap the nap at the same time he usually wakes up, so 2pm and do normal BT.  He will have had less nap time so ought to be more tired by BT and fuss less.
It may need a bit more tweaking (shorter nap, later BT) to get it just right but that's where I suggest you start.

[mrsroberts4]

Thank you Creations!

Yes he just turned 2 on Sunday.

I wondered whether he could be dropping his nap as it just seems so sudden. What you said makes sense though and I have to keep reminding myself that he's not doing it to cause me so much sadness. Thinking that helps prevent me from being angry with him.

I tried the shorter nap ending at the same time and then put him to bed for 7.30pm but he just talked and then my husband went in to tell him its bedtime and he cried for about 7 mins and went to sleep, but woke up at 5am this morning chatting until 6.20 and then started crying.

I'm going to try ending the nap a bit earlier and then see how that goes... maybe try fading out the nap gradually. It seems like he is settling at 12hrs per day with his fussiness.

Thank you sooooo much!