HELP! 10 weeks old very late bedtime!!

[Rawans]

This is my second post in this forum as I previously posted about the 45 minutes nap my LO had. Recently he started taking longer naps  and we're almost on a 3.5 hours easy routine (formula fed) during the day. However, i am having major problems during bedtime, LO has always had hard time going to bed at night, and as weeks pass he is having a later and later bedtime we are now at almost 2 am!! He would sleep till anywhere between 7 and 9, feed and then i would let him sleep a couple more hours since i know he needs his night sleep. Just to note, he isnt cranky, tired, in pain sick or anything he just wants to play. I tried for weeks setting a bedtime routine and putting him to bed earlier at different intervals from his last nap, trying every method, swaddling, rocking, paci and would then get crying and resistance, then falling asleep for 10-20 mins and we have to do that all over again till 1, this leads to frustration to me, my husband and him. I admit the past couple of nights i tried to follow his cues to see what happens and he would happily, playfully stay awake for 6 straight hours with a couple of 20 mins cat naps. Note that i rocked him to sleep until very recently where, on his own he started falling asleep by himself for his naps, not at night of course.

Please help as i need to go back to work soon!

[creations]

Hi there
It's great your Lo has started to self sooth for some of his sleeps   Great!

I'm afraid that going to bed at 2am and not waking for the day until around 11am is something that just needs to be changed - by you. He is not likely to just change this on his own showing you cues or with small tweaks in his nap routine. If you want this to change then you need to implement a clear routine and stick with it - he will cry yes, chances are though it will be just 3 or 4 days of absolute consistency with the day/night shift to begin to see changes.

There are two options really
1. go directly to an acceptable routine and ride it out. Wake him at 7am keep him up until nap time, cap nap at 2hrs, keep him up a full A time and continue to evening with 7pm BT.
or
2. slightly slower (but you still need to keep moving on it and it is still up to you not him to instigate change).
day 1 WU 9am, full A time, nap capped at 2hr, continue to BT 9pm
day 2 same as day 1, WU 9am, proper day routine, BT 9pm
day 3 WU 8am, full A times and naps capped at 2hrs max, BT 8pm
day 4 same as day 3, 8am - 8pm
day 5 WU 7am, full A times and naps capped at 2hrs max, BT 7pm
day 6 and thereafter same as day 5, 7am - 7pm

In either case (going quicker or slower) the following applies:
- in "day" (that is all time from WU to nap time, between all naps, up to "night" which is BT) you need lots of natural light, normal household noise and activity
- in "night" (that is from the required BT all the way to the required WU time) you need a dark room, dim lights when doing night feeds, no noise other than shushing or white noise, no conversation other than the minimum (ie "let me pick you up for a feed", "I'm going to change your nappy now" or "night night go to sleep"), no singing or chit chat about things, no other distractions.
- during A time you need to keep him awake, if he starts to nod off you need to do whatever you can to distract him and wake him and keep him awake until nap time
- at nap time you need to keep him in a dark quiet room and repeat that it is time for sleep, set the environment and cues for sleep, if he doesn't sleep you keep him in there soothing him with shush/pat (or a firm hand doing a little rocking in the cot if needed) either for an additional 45 mins or until the end of nap time (if he sleeps a short nap of 20 mins I suggest only staying 45 mins trying to resettle, then feed a little earlier than the routine)

Some LOs just seem to run on a day length that is not 24hrs - if you allow them to shift to their own day length the result is day/night switch and antisocial sleeping times.  My own DS seemed to run on a 23hr day and was forever trying to get to bed for night sleep an hour earlier, I had to stretch him to BT as he woke early anyway - left to his own devices I believe he would have continued to go to bed earlier each night and wake earlier each morning - not pleasant.

You will need to be very consistent on this to make changes, and it may help to write out on paper your plan for each day (the full routine) so you have something to follow when you are feeling very tired.
Hope this helps

[Rawans]

Thank you for the detailed response. I think, however, i have to say he hasnt been sleeping in except for the past couple of days, before he used to start the day at 7/8 and nap on nap times and it was the same. Even now his A and S time are good during the day and we have the late bedtime issue, im not sure what to do to make his sleep earlier!

[Rawans]

Sorry for the many questions but I am trying to sort things out! I think where it goes wrong os after the late afternoon nap 5/6pm where, it is too early for a bedtime for him as he like to stay up later; my question is can i add another cycle of EASY till lets say 10 and try to make bedtime at 10 for now instead of trying him to go down for the night at 7/8 and him fighting, making it a 20 mins cat nap and ending OT. Will a nap this late 8/9 affect his night sleep as well? Is there any relation between his sleep and him being able to fall asleep independently for a nap but not nighttime? Shouldnt he be able to self sooth at night if he knows how? This just leads me to confirm that there is something wrong with his sleep schedule

 I know it seems all over the place but im confused as what to do!

[Martini~]

Honey could you post your routine here? Thank you!

[creations]

i have to say he hasnt been sleeping in except for the past couple of days,

sorry if you didn't find the responsor helpful. We only have the information you provide to go on.  I was basing my response on his waking at 9am having a bottle and going back to sleep for another couple of hours based on your first post.  I would say even doing this a couple of days and not keep ing LO in a routine of waking in good time in the morning can throw a routine substantially off track.

[Rawans]

No thank you actually it was very helpful and i am trying to implement it by gradually reducing bedtime. Sorry you misunderstood but its not very consistent thats why its hard to provide you with an exact daily routine especially after the afternoons. However, i will put down below wht is the most common pattern if it would give you any insights

Up for the day 7:30 am (could 7 could be 8, so just have 7:30 as an average)
E 7:30
A 8
S 8:45-9 (At early tired cues, this is the nap where he started nodding off alone so i started swaddling putting paci putting him in his pack and play next to my bed and in 5-10 mins hes off. This nap however is anywhere between 45-90 mins) if he woke up at 45 i have A time then E then move S time earlier
 
The next naps are usually on his bouncer in the living room and i usually bounce the bouncer a little till he falls asleep. Sometimes i need to rock him if hes extra fussy
E 10:30 recently ive been feeding at 3 hours since he seems hungry
A 10:50
S 11:45-12 this might be a 45 minutes nap or the long 2 hours npa (he started recently having one long nap)

Assuming it was a short nap and the nap after is the long nap

E 1:30
A 1:50
S 2:45

E 5
A 5:20
S 6:30 for anywhere between 20 mins - 90 mins

Now it becomes more unpredictible and confusing. He has hos bottle at 8:30 and i have previously tried the bedtime routine at 8:30. It would take an hour for him to fall asleep then to wake up 20 mins later. I tried for a week sticking to the same routine and the earliest he went off after several tries is 11:30, somedays it would take up to 1:30. Of course at night time he would never sleep without rocking/walking etc.

I have tried the past coulple of night keeping him more awake after thr afternoon naps and following his cues, same result he ends up catnapping until i take him to the bedroom and start putting him to sleep, yesterday it took from 11 till 1:30 after several tries.

I know it seems all over the place and im very sorry but im a bit frustrated. Thank you

[Martini~]

He seems to be ready to go to 3 naps. How long is the 3rd nap?

[Rawans]

Oh most of his naps are around an hour except the noon one, sometimes he surprises me by sleeping longer so its unpredictable, how should i go about this? If he only naps 3 times his bedtime would be around 6:30, im not sure he would go to bed for the night this early. Can i have some pointers please. Should i try increasing A time a bit at a time? What time should i try putting him down after his last nap?

[Martini~]

If you put him to bed too early after last nap he will treat it as a catnap/nap. I would try to increase A times through the day towards 3.5h easy.