Is it accidental parenting?

[Benitta23]

Hi,

I have question reg. sleeping routine of my 8mo DD. I've been weaning the swaddle for 3 weeks now, first with one hand, now with 2 hands out. It's been going rather ok, but my DD still has a problem with falling asleep without any of my help, because she tends to rub and smash her face when falling asleep. Once she's asleep, she sleeping ok and even if she smashes herself during sleep it doesn't awake her. Our wind down routine is that I take her to her sleeping room, I pull down the curtains, turn on the lullaby and I put her into the crib. I lay a lovely along side her head and I always need to hold at least one of her hand to anable her falling asleep. Sometimes I need to hug her for a while in a crib to calm her down. Is this routine ok? I'm worried that with this hands holning and hugging in a crib, it's too much help. Is there any method to teach a baby to fall asleep without any help of a paranet? When my DD was swaddled I didn't do anything after putting her in the crib, I was leaving the room and she was falling asleep by herself. I just add that our nights are pretty good, she's sleeping from 7 to 6 but we offen have ews at 5 or 5.30 and it's no way that she could fall back to sleep by herself then, because at some point, she's starting to kick herself with her hands and I need to hold her hands for a while to help her get back to sleep. Is this help too much of help?

Thanks a lot for your help in advance

[jessmum46]

She's not sleeping independently if she needs you there to settle, but it sounds like once asleep she naps well and has good nights? It depends how much of a trouble it is for you in that case. Whilst BW promotes independent sleep skills (have a look at the FAQs on shh pat and PUPD) some parents feel that a little time spent getting LO to sleep is worth it provided you are not struggling with super short naps or bad nights as a result. There is always that risk though - it really is your call whether you go with it for now and then tackle it if/when it becomes a problem, or whether now is a good time Did you want to post your routine to see if there is an obvious reason for the EW?

[Benitta23]

My DD's always been an independed sleeper when she was swaddled (since 1mo). Her hands started to be problematic during falling asleep, since she's not swaddled.

Our daily routine looks more or less like as follows:

BF: at wake up, after 1st nap, after 2nd nap, at BT and DF (22 pm).
Solids:
Breakfast at 9-9.30
lunch at 14 (depending on wake up from 1st nap)
dinner at 18.30

If the EW is at 6 am I try to hold her hands to get her back to sleep and we wake up at 7-7.30
1st nap at 11-11.30 (yes she has A time of 4-4.5h!).
2nd nap at about 16, depending on when she got up from the previous nap
She has two naps of 1h-2h, in total about 2.5h-3h of day sleep

BT at 7.30 or 8. Total amount of night sleep is about 10h
I'll add that we've never had EW when DD was swaddled or if happened it occurred very rare

[creations]

Hi there.
I just stopped by to mention that the face rubbing and using her arms sounds like a method of self soothing to me. Although it might look very active and not at all related to relaxation, LO often look this way when self soothing. My DS has a muslin for his lovey and he has always whacked it around the place, rubbing vigorously on his face, swinging it in his arms, baging it down on the mattress...it really doesn't look like he is falling to sleep but I have read very similar descriptions of other LO with their lovey use or self soothing without a lovey banging their arms and hands on the mattress and on their head etc.

The hand holding you describe does sound like something of a prop to me - but I wonder if some of it is because you feel LO needs more help than she actually needs?  If you let her do her thing with her hand/lovey might she actually nod off without you holding her hand?  it sounds like she does very similar actions mid-nap and doesn't wake herself, this could be her self soothing during the transition, so she is getting herself through that switch from one sleep cycle to another with this method.
It might be worth holding off and seeing what happens.
Or if she is very depend on you holding her hand I would suggest a gentle wean whereby you hold her lovey and her hand and gradually introduce the lovey between your hands to that in a few days or a week she is holding the lovey rather than your hand.  My DS was much younger when he bonded to his lovey but the method was to have it with us all the time so he associated mummy's holding/care/love with the muslin and he was very accustomed to the touch and texture of it - so when I was not there he got comfort from it.  He still flaps the thing around the bed and he's just turned 6yo.

One more thing - as your LO is doing a long first A time, has she had this A time for a while?  It could even be that she needs the first nap just another touch later to help her be tired enough to settle without you.  I do think that independent sleepers tend to return to independent sleep just as soon as they can, often with minimal encouragement to do so, changes in sleep routine such as weaning a swaddle, changing rooms etc can cause a huge need for help from a parent but often only for a few days or a week because they are already used to being alone for sleep.

hope this helps some

[jessmum46]

^^^i agree - what happens if you hold back a bit?  My only other thought was just with that first A time being so long...some babies flail their arms and are hard to calm when overtired. Have you ever tried putting her down earlier, at a more typical A time for her age (say 3.5h)? Does it help?

[Benitta23]

Thank you so much for your help!

By the time I've been waiting for your advices, I've been trying to provide my DD as little help as possible during falling asleep, without any hands holding, just patting her head or even just holding my hand or her head for few seconds. That's been working pretty good. I have a feeling, that it's gonna be like you wrote above, she needs some time to adjust to the new sleeping routine, as she was used to be swaddled for 7 months.

The thing is also that she needs probably even longer A time, just exacly as you wrote, because I've noticed that she falls asleep much more independently when she's really tired, and what's more,  she have longer naps than. Yesterday she managed to keep up for 5h! and she had a decent 2.5h nap. So I'm pretty sure that we'll be heading towards 1 long nap per day. Yesterday we were almost there!

Once again many thanks for you tips/advices. It's all very helpful.

You're amazing people here on this forum, providing help to so many parents and promoting Tracy's ideas. I admire you a lot!!!

[Benitta23]

^^^i agree - what happens if you hold back a bit?  My only other thought was just with that first A time being so long...some babies flail their arms and are hard to calm when overtired. Have you ever tried putting her down earlier, at a more typical A time for her age (say 3.5h)? Does it help?

With 3.5h A time she won't nap/if she falls asleep somehow she sleeps for 30 min at most. I tried it for many many times. She's really happy with very long A times, especially when she has a decent night of 11h of sleep.

[creations]

You are very welcome

She is very young for moving to one nap but we do see one or two on the boards moving to one nap particularly early.
The only problem in the meantime is that with a super long A time then a lovely long nap, I'm not sure how you are fitting in another CN later in the day - but you seem to be managing somehow so that's good.
Does she need her second/third A times to be long too or only the first?  Mine only had the first long, he liked a short A time before BT.

[jessmum46]

That's great she naps so well on that A time you're clearly doing a fantastic job of listening to what she needs xx

[Benitta23]

You are very welcome

She is very young for moving to one nap but we do see one or two on the boards moving to one nap particularly early.
The only problem in the meantime is that with a super long A time then a lovely long nap, I'm not sure how you are fitting in another CN later in the day - but you seem to be managing somehow so that's good.
Does she need her second/third A times to be long too or only the first?  Mine only had the first long, he liked a short A time before BT.

She only has the first A time that long. The 2nd A time and the one before BT are shorter - from 3 to 3.5h. She amaizes me with those long A time constantly. I couldn't figure it out for a long time, that's why she often tended to short napping, because I was puting her to bed too early. My DS1 at her age had two - 2h naps and I had to put him for BT at 6pm, because he couldn't go for any longer in the afternoon and he was sleeping from 6pm to 6 am. Ideal isn't it? His sister is a total oposite!

If she has long 1st nap - until 2.30 pm, I put her for a very short CN around 17.30 for 20 to 30 minutes. In this scenario the BT is around 8.30 pm.

Today we had a bad night, she was wakeing up frequently, trying to fall back to sleep but smashing her face from time to time. I've tried to not to intervene, saying only shhh quietly. It help for a while and she was able to fall asleep, but after few minutes her hands were up, rubbing her face and she started to cry a lot with a lot of tears. I had to stay with her for more then 30 min to help her with getting back to sleep, by patting and keeping her hands away from her face. I must admit that we haven't had such a bad night for a long time but she is teething currently so that might me the case (two theeth are getting out).

My strategy for these sort of situations will be teaching her how to occupy her hands at sleeping routine in the way you described above. I hope that in a few weeks time we will get to the point when she can control her hands and can get back to sleep by herself. Do you have any other ideas or you agree with this?

Once again thank you so much for your support!!!

[jessmum46]

I think that sounds like a great plan   FWIW although mine have also slept independently from a very young age I still even now (2.5 and 5y!) may need to give them some help if they are in discomfort or just very wound up and tired.  If she's teething and suffering with it then I would give her the help she needs just as you did x

[creations]

Yes, great plan and everything katherine said.

If there is a lovey you have already introduced (I think you mentioned a soft toy) and she is bonding with I suggest you buy another (or several - these are likely going to be used for a long time) and rotate them relatively frequently, let the attachment be also to your laundry detergent scent rather than the mucky-lovey smell. it's also okay to "wear" a clean lovey in your own clothes to get some of that comforting Mummy-scent onto it.
Mine is attached to his muslin but also the scent of them being clean, he is joyous rather than traumatised by clean lovies.  Just a tip