Early waking even with dream feed

[mariarico]

Hi there
My 3.5 month old keeps waking at 3am for a feed even though he has a dream feed at 10:45. The dream feed doesn't seem to help bc even when we don't dream feed he still wakes up at that time hungry.

Then he wakes up at 5am again, but not hungry. He's just wide awake and it takes 30 min to an hour to fall asleep again.

We try shh/pat but he gets more upset and pushes away when we touch his back. I think he hates shh/pat bc when I stop it, he's calmer, just awake cooing.

How do I get him to stop waking at 5am or at least get him back to sleep?

He's an okay napper, though he does wake at 45 min mark crying but then falls back asleep by himself--he'll do 3x 40min sleep cycles for morning and afternoon nap so 1.5 hrs each nap

He's breastfed through bottle (I pump), and drinks 4-5 oz every 3.5 hours. Total of 20-23 oz.
And his wake time is about 1.5 hours

His day is something like this
7:30 wake eat
9 nap -- he'll do 3x40min cycles cries at each cycle
11 eat
12:30 nap-- same as morning nap
3pm eat
4:30/5pm-- 45 min nap
6:30 eat but it's less like 3 oz
At this part, sometimes he'll take another 45 min nap or sometimes he stays awake til bed, depends on time.
Eat 4-5 oz
8:30/9pm bedtime
3am wake and eat 3oz
5am wake
6am sleep til 7:30am

[jessmum46]

A 3am feed with or without a dreamfeed is very reasonable at this age, so I guess it's the 5am wake that you are more concerned by?  I would say that perhaps your bedtime is too late....we normally work on about a 12h day at this age and I wonder if perhaps your routine just needs a bit of tweaking?  There is often a bit of change with naps as the 4-3 transition (3h to 4h EASY transition) occurs at about this age.  It sounds like your LO is a pretty good napper but I wonder if maybe you may need to push for a little longer A time and try to get by on just the 2 main naps plus a catnap consistently?  And bring BT to more like 7.30pm, 8pm latest?  Thoughts??

[mariarico]

Well, I thought the dreamfeed would help wake him later like 4-5am?? I remember that's what happened with my first baby. But I guess they are all different??

I will try earlier bedtime but I'm worried he will wake 2-3am if he goes earlier?

Ok so I will extend A time and take away 4th capnap consistently.

[jessmum46]

They are definitely all different   Though I have just noticed that you are doing a 10.45pm dreamfeed with an 8.30/9pm bedtime....I would imagine that first he wouldn't be that hungry so soon after a bedtime feed, and second Tracy's recommendation was that a dreamfeed should be done between 10-11pm based on a 7pm bedtime i.e. 3-4h after bedtime.  Something to do with sleep cycles I think?  Doing the dreamfeed so early on in his night may be disturbing things - if it makes no difference to his night waking I'd be tempted to just get rid of it

The only way to know if changing his bedtime will affect the nights is to try

[Martini~]

Worth mentioning that 20-23oz for a 3.5mo is on the verge which means that losing 3am feed would mean 3oz less and he can be just genuinely hungry. Can you please paste you eat times once again with number of oz he takes?

Re sleep - is he doing 2h in the morning as it is 3x40min? Being honest his day and night seems to be not established well. At that age you can hope for a 12h night but day sleep should go down to 3h tops. Awake times between naps should go to 2h as without it you get more sleep a day. I really like short morning nap and short afternoon nap for a baby that age so keeping 3 naps for a longer spel and that the routine you could aim for.

[mariarico]

Ok so I put him to bed at 7:30, with a dream feed at 10:30 and he woke up at 1:30am! That's tooo early! Lol
When I put him to bed at 9ish he wakes up at around 3am which me and hubby prefer

I can't get more milk in him so he could perhaps sleep longer. I try so hard but he refuses

He eats every 3-3.5 hrs and sometimes 4 hrs
It changes but roughly goes:
8am- 3.5 oz
11:30- 5 oz--his most hungriest
3:30- 4 oz
7:30- 5 oz
3am- 3oz

Is he waking bc he's having low milk amount??
I just don't know what to do when he wakes at 5am again? He hates ssh/pat

[Martini~]

Being honest Honey - you need him to drink around 20-25oz of milk per day as a minimum. Looking at the fact that he takes 3oz at 3am and 3 oz at 8am, cutting MOTN feed gives you less than 20? And 3oz seems to be 2/3-3/4 of his portion not a small feed. So to get rid of 3am feed I would probably start from giving him bedtime milk at 6:30/7pm so he gets 4oz, than DF around 11pm so he gets this 3-4oz and than you can aim for 7am feed (not 8am).

His 5am wakeup seems to me UT wakeup connected with routine not feeding.

[mariarico]

So you think I need to give more A time?
He gets pretty cranky and cries at 1hr20, and falls aslepp quickly by 1hr30

[jessmum46]

I agree the 5am wu is routine-related but I think actually OT from too late a bedtime.  My feeling is that he can't manage longer than 1h20-30 A times because his night is a little on the short side.  If he had a longer night (I mentioned earlier) then I think he'd probably handle the push in his daytime A times

[Martini~]

No matter if you call it UT or OT, I think he is just used to having shorter A times, but more of them and shorter night iykwim. So he is doing shorter night and is not ready for longer A times etc. It would be worth to calculate his total A during day and think how much longer his A should be.

[mariarico]

Thanks for your replies and suggestions, I appreciate it!
I put him down tonight at 7:30pm and I'll do a dreamnfeed too. Keeping my fingers crossed.
 But if he wakes at 1:30/2am, do I feed him?
My goal is to make him sleep until 4am or so (if he needs a feed) and then sleep until 7/7:30.
Again waking 2x at 3am and 5am is what I want to avoid

[jessmum46]

Just remember all babies are different and not all will do long stretches at night at this age   Night feeds are exhausting but unfortunately normal!  If he feeds 3.5hrly in the day, I would probably feed at night if it had been that long since the last feed, or try to settle by other means if significantly earlier x

[mariarico]

So I need some advice...
Here's an update-
I've been putting my baby down at 7:30pm for the past 4 nights and he wakes up at 2:30 for a feed.
Now here's the problem, he is waking up every hour cooing and talking. The other night he was up from 3:30-6:30an! Last night he was up at 4:30 did 45 min then wide awake until 6:30am.

It seems that he was doing much better when I put him down at 8:30/9pm--he would wake at 3:30 then at 5:30am but at lest he would go back to sleep.

Now it seems that he's just not tired

He is taking in a lot more milk as well bc we give the dream feed at 11pm, so I don't think it's hunger
He use to drink 21-23 oz, now he has 25-28oz

Day looks like this:
He is 15 weeks, doing 1hr 30 min wake time
7:30eat 4oz
9am nap -- does 2x45 min--takes him awhile to fall back asleep crying
11/11:30- eat 5oz
1pm nap- again 2x45 min with crying in between
3:30/4-- eat 5oz
5:30-- nap 45 min
7:30-- 5oz then bed but  sometimes he fights it til 8pm
11pm dream feed about 3-4 oz
2;30am eats 3-4 oz
Then wakes at 4:30am cooing and again 6:30 cooing

I'm wondering if I should go back to later bedtime?

[Martini~]

In my opinion he is just UT and instead of later bedtime you should just push his A time. I am aware that 3.5h or now 4mo would do 2h as an average but your son seems to be ready for more if he shortens his nights like that.

[mariarico]

I'm so confused about his A time...he gets very tired at 1hr and 30 and it's so hard to put him down, he cries so much, but when I do 1 hr 20 he goes down fine
If I go longer wake time isn't it going to be harder to put down?